Sonny Liston vs Joe Frazier

How is he rated?

Joe Frazier has become the anti Thomas Hearns. Frazier can`t win a fight on paper, Hearns can`t lose one. Good thing fights were fought in the ring or else Frazier would`ve never been able to win the Olympic Gold Medal and the Heavyweight Championship of the World. He may be the worst fighter ever to achieve that.

 

I agree Liston and Frazier would beat Cooper.
But Why does Patterson knocking out Cooper dismiss Henry's respected opinion of who he felt was over rated and under rated during the 1960s?

 

Frazier had the misfortune of beating the same greatest fighter of all time who whipped Liston in one round.
Why is that Fraziers one great win though?

Surely flattening Ellis and being the first man to stop Chuvalo counts for something? Then there is the win over quarry, another stoppage, and then there is bonnavena too.

I think Ali, Ellis, quarry, bonnavena was pretty much a clean sweep of the elite heavyweights of his period at the top. A kind of no stone unturned domination.

Liston had Patterson, machen and Folley. That's it. He missed out Johansson and perhaps Terrell.

 

Choklab

Even though I pick Liston to beat Frazier it is the style match up that I favor Liston. All this "Frazier is overated" stuff is starting to get out of hand. No one is really laying out good reason for that opinion. I put in bold from your post a great reason for why he is not overated. I think that statement pretty much closed the overated argument for me.

Thanks.

 

I would consider it a huge insult to be held in high regard by the likes of you, Kolcade, boxer shits 99, azzer and any other fans of s.e.x.ual deviants like Tyson.

You are to be dehumanised, funnily enough in much the same way that the Nazis dehumanised the Jewish people you claim to be such an expert on in the Mickey Duff thread.

How's that one going, by the way? Anymore of your hysterical, girlie, unwarranted accusations of anti semitism?

 

Mods...seriously.

(Who am I kidding? This is what to expect around here these days)

 

"For some reason, Sonny had always seemed very uncomfortable around Alex." said Gil Clancy, Miteff's manager. "I never fully understood it myself. There was something about Miteff that spooked him".

 

I never ever said Sonny ducked Miteff, I never ever thought he would beat Sonny at any point, I just think a larger sized mauler like him could have given us more of an example of Listons monstrous power against a man his own size. I was just thinking of a big game heavyweight around during Sonnys prime who always fought back who was simular albeit lower level than a Bonavena type.

Miteff's career never panned out. After getting the build up he became disillusioned and prostituted himself out as a named opponent on the road. In the over all picture of 1950s boxing scene he has no more going for him than Cleveland Williams, possibly less since Williams hammered him by all acounts, But Alex could fight and like you say, was highly thought of in New York gyms.

Most of miteff losses were either cuts or close decisions against hometown boys. Maybe Liston blows him away early, maybe he could have gave Sonny rounds like Willie besmanoff and Johnny Summerlin?

 

No I am not whinging about Sonny not fighting Chuvalo, I do think it's astonishing that so many think it is a given that Joe Frazier gets beat so quickly by Liston without more examples of Sonny against 200lb plus maulers.

I think that for anyone to be so positive that Liston blows away Frazier early I think more examples are required of how Liston fared against big endurance guys. That's all.

More astonishing of course is the "scorned woman" act I get from you on Liston threads..

 

That is not what I am doing. Why is it dishonest to ask for more evidence of a type of durable, strong high energy opponent?

The honest truth is Frazier beat ALi and Liston did not. The honest truth is Frazier fought punchers like quarry and he fought bigger guys than he was that were on the scene when he was around like chuvalo and Bonnavena who also happened to be top men at the time too.

Liston did not duck anyone, he beat the men he had to beat in order to be both outstanding challenger and champion. Which he was. It is not Sonnys fault that the big maulers were not so highly placed during his run or that he had a size advantage over most of the top ten.

Where is the dishonesty in asking for more evidence against a type of opponent?

You say the same could be said of Frazier that he did not fight so many punchers but he did fight Quarry. He did fight bonnavena. Don't you think quarry and Bonnavena cover the big puncher tag for that period? I think Frazier ,might have exhausted more types of Heavyweight than Liston, would it be dishonest to suggest that?

 

The Joe Frazier that beat Ali in there first fight would have Beaten Liston, that was his greatest effort, that was never to be repeated by Joe, But the Frazier who lost to George Forman,would have struggled against Liston.