Sonny Liston vs Joe Frazier

Here is a part of my problem with you. You write posts that are generally untrue, and when I then take them apart you ignore most of what I write and instead quote the one line that helps with your agenda and start again. Here, I invite you to respond to the points that I make, in full. I'll deal with the rest of your post seperately. Here, I'm just going to illustrate that you are a liar or an idiot - just repost this post if you do nothing else. Explain it to me.

Remember, I said that you were "Using [Misteff] to peg Liston's competition against a certain type whilst writing off better fighters of a certain type Frazier didn't meet is typical of your dishonesty." To which you replied, "That is not what I'm doing."

So, the first part of my statemnt is not in doubt (""Using [Misteff] to peg Liston's competition against a certain type") as you ask in your most recent post "Why is it dishonest to ask for more evidence of a type of durable, strong high energy opponent?". We will leave aside whether Misteff is "durable" (enormously debatable) or "high energy" and accept that we agree on this part of both statements and move onto the second one.

I've claimed that you "write of better fighters Frazier didn't meet" as perspective opponents in the same thread.

In other words, I am accusing you of insisting that Liston be held to a certain standard - fighting opponents such as Misteff (and others) - than Frazier be held to, even though Misteff is clearly less qualified than the men I said it is as reasonable to suggest Frazier would meet as it is to suggest Liston meet Misteff and Bonavena.

Here is your response:

"Besides, whilst you are corect Frazier did not fight either of those chaps he did fight Quarry who hit hard enough to knockout Foster and shavers which kind of bypassed a need for Frazier to fight them in any case. Perhaps you have dates when Frazier was suposed to fight Norton Liston or Lyle within his prime? I am not sure they were ever that relevent to Fraziers championship or a route to a later title shot"

It is pretty clear from the above that you specifically set out to "write off" these men as opponents, exactly as i've claimed. You say that Frazier "bypassed" the need to fight Foster and Shavers by virtue of the fact that Quarry beat them. You infer that Norton and Lyle don't have good "dates" to fight Frazier on.

All of this might be true, but you continue to hold Liston to a different standard. Quarry - an extremely good fighter - eliminates various contenders from consideration, but Miteff in your view isn't eliminated by losses to DeJohn (KO1), Besmanoff (RTD 1), Folly (UD), ALL GUYS WHO LISTON BEAT. You infer it is mysterious that Liston missed out on Miteff despite his being beaten by a raft of inferior fighters that Liston took, but Frazier doesn't have to bother with clearly superior fighters because an even better fighter took them. Whether you are claiming that he "should" have met them or that it would have "helped us to understand" better what might happen, it is equally true of both men, only Frazier would always, always have to face the sterner tests.


What I accused you of - "Using Miteff to peg Liston's competition against a certain type whilst writing off better fighters of a certain type Frazier didn't meet is typical of your dishonesty." - is exactly, inarguably what you are doing, and a matter of record in this thread.

What is your answer?

 

So? Marco Barrera lost to Junior Jones, and Erik Morales did not. You think this is some sort of barrier to Barrera beating Morales?

If ever there was a case of styles being the definitive factor this is it, but you don't want to consider it because you are biased, dishonest and an agenda poster.

The honest truth is that Quarry was nowhere near the status of Shavers, Lyle, Foreman and Liston as a puncher. Who are you trying to kid?

Yeah, Bonavena was top and Bonavena hit hard, and Bonavena decked Frazier three times in one round. What Benn did to Barkley, Bonavena did to Frazier, no different. The second best puncher Frazier fought?

Perhaps not dishonest, but given the source of the statement, suspicious. When you arrived on this forum you said that you were "here to undermine Sonny Liston". I'm here to undermine you.

 

Once again you've ignored almost everything that has been said to you in favour of another strange tangent. You never disappoint, at least.

And, as is very clear from this thread your patter where this fighter is concerned is as strange as it ever was.

 

I was actually reading an interview with Liston from 1968 and he was basically challenging Frazier in print. This was before Frazier beat Bonavena the second time, which I always thought announced his arrival in earnest, but he's still called him out by name.

Asked if he thought Frazier would "have a chance" against them, he answered "I reckon he would because all of you are right about me being fifty years old, which I ain't" (quality). Pressed on whether he wanted Frazier (and another fighter - i forget who) now, or did he need a few more fights, he answered "I'm ready now - are they?"

Fight could have happened in '69.