Sonny Liston vs Joe Frazier

Ahh! Archie knew George could not beat ALi, he just went along with it...

 

For sure. It won't make him right each time either. It's only guessing. Joe Frazier wound up beating Ellis, Quarry and Ali more emphatically than anyone could predict he would in 1968. Around that time Ellis and Frazier were proberbly regarded about equal but Joe wound up finding another level. He surpassed the level he was regarded in 1968. By TFOTC Joe had wound up beating all the elite fighters in some style. He was a great fighter at that point. ALI, Ellis, Quarry, Bonnavena, chuvalo.

 

This is a tough one. And it may not go as anticipated. No one really knows why frazier lost to foreman the way he did. Foreman was scared of frazier and said so publicly that he questioned turning pro when he first saw frazier annihilate a fighter bigger than him. Frazier still never gave a good reason for why he lost to foreman. I don't think he was past his prime. I think he just fought a rare fighter who gave him stylistic issues and "had his number". Kind of like a hearns duran thing. Hearns would probably beat duran 100 out of 100 times because he just had his number. For some reason all of durans move and vulnerablities were crystal clear to hearns but wasn't to someone like hagler or leonard.

I was originally going to say frazier as he is the better fighter but the more I think about it objectively it seems to favour liston. Liston throws singular powerful punches, frazier wears you down. Frazier did beat several other power punches like quarry, bugner, oscar bonavuena (some who were larger than liston). But stylistically a swarmer tends to lose to a power puncher.

The other problem I have is frazier employed a second strategy of boxing against foreman and still lost. BUT, foreman never knocked out frazier nor hurt him enough to stop him. Liston didn't have the endurance to attack frazier like that. And foreman after lewis is the hardest boxer to beat head to head. Norton who copied frazier style and was largely trained by him lost to foreman horribly as well. So I think this is stylistic.

And given no one else besides foreman steam roleld joe like that, its not fair to say just because liston is a big puncher he'd win. Foreman threw his punches down low and upper cuts right under foreman that worked out perfectly for him. I don't recall liston throwing alot of uppercut even on guys bending over like patterson. I do recall his best punches being straight and hooks. And the bobbing style of frazier makes ithard to land those.

I'd favour frazier but not by much, I could see Liston winning as no surprise. But frazier beat most big punchers he faced. And its not like Liston would have beaten foreman either. At that point the only way to beat foreman was stick and move and only lennox lewis would have enough power to go head to head with foreman and probably come out on top. Maybe I prime tyson but that would be it. Foreman had a better chin then Liston too, Liston had lack of heart and quit on the chair. Foreman got knocked down how many times by lyle and got up and won. Foreman is a guy who came back in his 50s to beat guys half his age when most 50 year olds are on a host of medications and wearing diapers.

my final view would be if liston doesn't knock out frazier in the first 5-6 then he loses the fight probaby gets knocked out near the end. If Liston lands a big enough shot to hurt frazier, and is able to knock him down 6 times like foreman then he wins. Now my guess would be if Liston drilled frazier and frazier drilled him back liston would be on the floor.

 

But is it always mandatory for the trainer of a winning fighter to always say his fighter will win even if he thinks his fighter will lose? I know that they do but is it really mandatory? Many a trainer will walk away if he knows his kid has taken a fight he can't win. Either that or he will at least tell the fighter he will only win if he listens to his game plan and between them they will convince the other he can win and by then they will believe it. So by then the trainer says his fighter will win not because it is mandatory but because he will believe his fighter can win. It might not be unconditional but he will believe it when he says it or he would have walked away. That way when the kid loses the trainer can say his fighter did not listen, that was the condition of believing it.. It is not to say he did not believe his fighter could win BEFORE the fight.

 

Yes I understand the point. Archie Moore favoured Liston to beat Frazier and Ellis in 1968 because back then Frazier was regarded no higher than Ellis.

"But I also believe he'll never get the chance. What do either Frazier or Ellis need with Liston".

 

A style thing with Foreman & Frazier & the Foreman would likely overwhelmingly win, yes. But there is no question that Frazier was visibly past his prime after the FOTC, & the one fight he did not train seriously for was with FOreman in Jamaica. Anyway his movement, speed & reflexes were significantly declined.

Hearns & Duran was not just about style, the natural size differential was large. And Hearns was not weight drained like fighting Leanoard @ 145 when a long armed 6' 1".

Yes the style match up favors Liston. But he did have good endurance at his peak, fought tough including with a broken jaw, you cannot use the dubious end of his career to measure how he would do at peak any more than Tyson-or Frazier getting a gift draw for that matter against Jumbo.

I think Liston could figure out to throw some uppercuts, besides his tremendous power & jab.

The eomment about most in their 50's must have been a bad ageist joke, hard to believe anyone would believe that. But while there was some misinformation at the time, there is no question about Foreman's age & that he was born in 1949. He never fought in his 50's. He did win abelt at 45.

Where is the evidence that Liston would likely get floored by Frazier in an exchange? Considering who got rocked or put on the canvas (before washed up) & Liston's clearly greater power, that seems to get it backwards.

Love Joe, but he would take enough shots to get his own in (13" reach advantage) that he would likely be put down &/or out.

 

Frazier beat better fighters. Frazier is more proven at elite level. Liston has a good chance because he hits hard but it's no cake walk for either fighter.

Prime Frazier did not fight Foreman. Comparing what happened to Frazier in his final defence as champion is not unlike using the performance of Liston in his final title fight as a comparison.

Prime Frazier fought and beat ALi, Ellis, quarry, bonnavena. This compares well against Listons best wins Patterson, Folley, Harris and machen.

 

Ellis Quarry Bonavena and Chuvalo would all be murdered by a prime Liston, beaten more emphatically than they were by Frazier. Frazier beat one great fighter and was in turn beaten by him twice. His record against atg's is W1. L 4.

 

O tempora! O mores!

 

Don't confuse him with facts.

 

Frazier could only fight one way, keep swarming forward, that way against a bigger, stronger, heavier puncher is invariably fistic suicide
The result against Foreman would have been duplicated against Liston who had more skills than Foreman , threw straighter punches and ,as if that was not enough had a telephone pole of a jab.
Quarry fought a stupid fight against Frazier,playing to his strength Bonavena gave him fits, and Bugner staggered him
Neither Quarry , Bugner,Bonavena,were power punchers ,and none were bigger physically ,excepting Bugner was taller.
Norton and Frazier had only superficial similarities in style in that both were only effective coming forward .
Prime Liston had a great chin and lots of heart as he showed when continuing with a broken nose against Williams, and a broken jaw against Marshall.
Liston had a very effective uppercut , after taking Sonny's telescopic jab, Frazier would be bobbing into it . Frazier was a grinder he wore you down,against Liston that would not be factor because he would have shipped so much punishment in the early rounds he would be stopped before he could assert command in a war of attrition.
Frazier's power is overated , he could not drop Bonavena in two wars ,nearly all his stoppages ended with his opponents on their feet.
It took him 11 rounds to wear down an unranked Mathis, who was ahead on two of the cards at the time of the stoppage.Quarry was stopped on cuts,Ellis on his stool, unranked Stander on cuts,Chuvalo on injury. Liston is superior in all departments that matter here.

 

What is Listons record against ATG heavyweights? 0-2?