it is only fistic suicide if he is walking up to land like he did against Foreman and stander. That's not what prime Frazier did though. Prime Frazier met a man ON THE WAY IN with punches. He had the angles, the timing to land on the way in. At long range he was beating Ali to the punch centre ring. This was an extra crucial abilty he had at a limited time. you take that away from him and you are corect, Liston WOULD smash Frazier...but that's not prime Frazier. I agree, Kingston Frazier gets blown away. 1970 Frazier is a different animal. Kingston Frazier perhaps but prime Frazier is meeting Liston with hooks at long range. An uppercut can be countered and a jab can be slipped if Frazier has the timing and rhythm of his prime. Having heart against marshal and WIlliams is one thing having it against Ali and Quarry is another level. If he was a sitting duck who didn't get going until he got inside. However, if he lands on the way in like he did against 82" reach of Ali, If he slipped as many jabs as he did against Ali Frazier is in with a shout. An outside game and an inside game. Frazier near decapitated Ellis. The bell saved him. Frazier decapitated Foster. Frazier floored Bugner. It was Fraziers punching that injured chuvalo and Stander. Mathis was a big man to knock out, so was Ramos. He floored Ali. There was nothing wrong with Fraziers elite KO ratio.
Who did Frazier put down for ten? Flooring is not Koing. Do you think Mathis goes 11 rds with Liston ? Does Bonavena go the distance twice with Sonny, and how about flooring him twice ? The premise that Frazier's hooks would be landing on the way in is discredited because Liston's straight jab, which is much longer ,would be catching him before he is in range.Frazier cannot compete with Liston for one shot power neither did he possess two handed power. Foster never beat a good heavyweight it was another gimme defence for Frazier, just like his shameful ones against Stander,Daniels, and Ziggy. Ramos was a hyped up nobody who quit, he beat a washed up Terrell thats it. Bottom line. Foreman and Liston beat ANY Frazier.
Are you saying Frazier cant punch??? Are you saying Liston is hard to hit? Are you saying Liston always beat men by the ten count? How about whitehurst, besmanoff, machen, scrap iron johnson etc etc. You are raving about Williams as a win but who did he knock out who was worth anything? Liston is not Foreman and Foreman did not fight the best Frazier. Get over it. Liston would be a hard fight for Joe, I accept that. But Frazier and Kingston Frazier were two different people. Just like Lewiston Liston was not the real Liston either. We should take it from their primes. We have seen Frazier get off the floor to win at elite level. We have seen the punches it took Frazier to get up from Foreman, he took some putting away and was on his feet at the end ....and that was his worst night. Liston had bad nights too. Liston will hit him, but Frazier will be fighting all the way with an accuracy and at a range that was absent in Kingston. His work rate and power is a problem for Liston. Joe is hitting back, he won't be the chopping block he was in his worst fight that is for sure.
Not necessarily so. How many faster jabs did Frazier slip before Ali could land one? How many long hooks did Frazier meet Ali with on the outside? The knockdown was a long range punch. The angles Frazier used and came in at gave him an extra step. The footwork is underrated.
You just ignore questions that are inconvenient to answer don't you? What is it with you? You take every comment and then exaggerate it? I never said Frazier could not punch,I said his power was overated ,and I stand by that .I'm saying Liston took the blows of a harder hitter than Frazier , Williams ,] and came back for more. The only super hitter Frazier faced beat the living **** out of him. I'm beginning to sympathise with McGrain, whom I at first thought was harsh on you. All your whole point is based on is that Frazier was irrevocably diminished at the age of 29. This is far from a given BTW.
Why dont you take a look at Frazier's face after he had fought the best fight of his life? Then think about what a real hitter would have done to it.
Sure, Ali hit Joe a lot of times. Liston hit harder than Ali but did he hit as often? I think Ali threw more leather than Liston and he was more accurate. Yet for all Ali hit Joe a lot of times he missed a lot too. Liston lands less and throws less than Ali and in all that time Joe is landing on Sonny with big punches. I think Joe still struggles with Liston. It would be a war. I just think Joe comes out on top. Liston has a good chance, I just favour Frazier.
Frazier hit hard. Foreman hit hard and so did Liston. Sure Foreman knocked Frazier all over the place but it was his last defence of the title, he had paid his dues as a great fighter by then. I am not so sure Williams bit harder than Frazier at top level. Sure Williams had huge power but he just could not catch elite fighters with his dynamite. Ramos hurt Frazier briefly too.
A few factual & impressionistic corrections. Bonavena was more buly than Frazier, slightly shorter, 218 lbs. of musc le. He & quarry could sure hit, just not on the level of a Liston. It is folly to consider judgement based upon a single error, especially since Ali-Foreman could have gone either way. Ali admited being out on his feet twice I believive, & COULD Ali have won absent the loose ropes + hanging on & pulling Foreman's head down fairly continually? Though Ali would win prime to prime. Ali was listed at various wingspans, I have seen 78", 80" seems most common. I never heard 82". I do think that the general template of great power & length applies. Frazier was rocked by but bet lesser bombers. Frazier might win in his prime, but I think most often he loses to Foreman & Liston prime for prime. While he does better than both of them as a swarmer vs. prime Ali & Holmes. Though I pick prime Ali over him.
LIston's punches were much harder than Ali's he would not have to land so many to do damage,and Frazier would be coming in to them, because he had to.Show me what 1970 Frazier does different to win this fight. Frazier pounded on Mathis for 11 rds before breaking him down and Mathis was not a big puncher. Liston is one of the biggest .Frazier was hurt by much lesser punchers than Sonny, in this fight he gets buried.
Liston is capable of knocking Frazier out. Absolutely. However, I think Joe's slip and duck rate should keep him in the fight long enough to get plenty of his own shots through. Frazier really loaded up with bombs. Liston would be getting hit more often than Williams reached him.
On what do you base the underlined? Is it just a feeling ? I dont see Frazier being in the fight after 6 rounds I think he either gets pulled out or planted.
:rofl This is a grossly deluded statement. Frazier exhibited the ability well past his prime to change his style in the foreman 2 fight. Did he still lose. of course, but he changed his style, so he can fight more than one way. He started dancing and egging on foreman and trying to box like ali. And who is to say Liston was a stronger puncher? Frazier punches dropped Ali twice in the first fight one of which was ruled a slip because of how fast Ali got up in the 5th. Liston lasted 7 rounds against Ali being knocked out in 1-2 rounds the second time. Ali never knocked out frazier. Which leads me to believe Frazier punches harder and can take a harder punch. Listons straight punches would have been a liability like Bugners and other taller fighter liston beated down. It was Georges unusual punching and power that threw frazier off. Liston would never land his jab. Frazier would just duck under or brush it away and pulverize him with a left or right hook. Probably knocking him unconscious. You have to remember this is a guy who got knocked out in 1-2 rounds vs Ali. Where Frazier got up 6 times Liston rolled in circles. This is another deluded statement Bugner was 6'6. Liston was never effective fighting backwards, most guys aren't. If Frazier ducks out the way of the fastest jab in human history, how the hell is Liston going to even land that jab? The fact of the matter was Foreman had a much better chin than Liston did hence was able to take the shots from Frazier, he also had a very different defense that made it hard to land hooks and anything but straight jabs down the middle. Liston was a compeltely different animal, he was very hittable by hooks. and the fact that he regularly got beaten down with broken noses and jaws shows he has a propensity to take big shots. Whereas williams gave ali 2 rounds. Frazier beat Ali. Liston wasn't even a good infighter, once frazier got close it'd be over. Anyone who drops ali twice cannot be an overrated fighter in the power department. Especially considering through 2 fights Liston couldn't drop him once. Not really, these are guys who are getting beat up and quitting before they got knocked out. Chuvalo's injury was he was bleeding from every crevace on his face because frazier pummelled him to a bloody pulp. Buster Mathis was 23-0 with 17 KO (73% ko rate) when Frazier fought him, so that is another crock of **** from you. Frazier beat his fair share of power punchers. Criticisizing him for not beating foreman or losing to foreman in an early knockout is simply stupid because everyone foreman faced pretty much got knocked out except Ali and Jimmy Young. This is stylistic and Liston would get knocked out just like everyone else he fought during that time. Liston doesn't have Foreman's power, liston got his jaw broke by marty marshall, got a flash ko by one punch from leotis martin and got knocked out in 1 by Ali. FRazier was only ever knocked out by a single opponent called foreman and only ever lost to 2 fighters who'd easily crush liston, ali and foreman. Its grossly stupid. Frazier knocked out Mathis, Ali didn't. Frazier dropped Bugner. So how would Liston survive even a single round against a harder puncher than Ali?
Frazier -Never dropped by Ali over 3 fights -Dropped only by hardest puncher and easily top 5 all time great foreman -Knocked down Ali twice in first fight Liston -Knocked out by Ali in 1 -Jaw broken by Marty Marshall, unknown fringe contender and beaten by him -Knocked out by fringe contender Leotis Martin -never knocked down ali The real question here isn't if Frazier can take Liston's punches, it is if Liston could take his. Because if martin, and ali could KO him, it would seem to make sense so could frazier.