Most will say Toney. But I think Im going for Joe Calzaghe. He was a natural great in that division and Toney had the tendency to drop a decision every now and again to a lesser guy.
In general, I will say the Calzaghe's output, speed and phrenetic energy cause problems for Toney. However, timing is crucial here. Toney was last a super middle in 94, when Calzaghe was 2 year vet… So, if it has to happen when both were in the division, Toney destroys him.
Toney would significantly reduce Calzaghe's output I think, but I think he'd get across enough punches to out-land Toney. Barring a key punch or flurry from Toney in a swing-round, I think that would get Calzaghe through to a dis-satisfying decision.
If we're talking about the Toney of the Barkley fight, then Calz gets worn down by clean counters all night long, and punished down the stretch in losing a UD.
That may very well have happened, but frankly I don't see why one would use the Barkley fight as a gauge for such a prediction. Iran looked nothing like Calzaghe in that match nor on any other day for that matter. Barkley came to mix it up with Toney.. Calzaghe would make James pursue him.
Toney easily. Calzaghe couldn't handle the counterpunching of 43 year old Hopkins and was given a gift. a prime Toney with solid power, excellent defense and counterpunching would demolish that overrated bum. Calzaghe NEVER beat a top level fighter near their prime in his career EVER. And if you consider Kessler elite then you are delusional
Such absolute bull****. Manny and even super fanboy Kellerman admitted by the 10th that the fight was over. And, oh, Calzaghe was a spring chicken at 36. Sheika, Veit, Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins weren't top level in the SMW division? Really? So, Calzaghe can not possibly replicated what Tiberi, Griffin and Thadzi pulled off? Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.
I think there would be patches where Toney's sniping and slickness would make Calzaghe look ordinary, but he'd ultimately be outworked by the Welshman and lose a decision. Decent chance he'd sit Joe on his arse for a short count at some stage, too!
toney was more natural and more great. we talking the best toney vs the best calzaghe. joe would have ran into something and once toney would have tasted joe's power he would have walked him down and toney stops him. i think the joe would get busted up, only person better then toney was roy at 168. the best roy the one that fought vinny.
What the fukk all does this mean. Calzaghe was a natural born fighter with **** you can't teach like speed, spacing, great legsĀ Toney had talent but relied more on the great teachings of Bill Miller. Calzaghe was the rougher but more brilliant diamond. Who ever stopped Calzaghe? Kessler, Lacy, Jones, Jr (tho old still had power), Eubank, Sheika, Reid.. not one of them came close and all had very good pop. Just wishful thinking that Toney is going to turn it on and walk through Calzaghe.
Must be nothing but zirconium wherever you watch athletes. Calz was hardly a natural athlete. Strengths: okay hand speed "Okay" like a guy who runs the 100m above 10 seconds. If you take the fastest 2000 times in history you can barely find a dozen times by white athletes and all of those are near the absolute bottom of those 2000 recorded marks. Joe was simply fast compared to other white guys. Ringside at the Hopkins fight (and Bernard for all his attributes he certainly is not considered to have extraordinary hand speed), Joe looked less quick or comparable AT BEST - to Hopkins. Joe's handspeed is slower than Andre Ward by a distance. Strengths: conditioned for high activity No doubt about it, Joe put in the miles in the Welsh hills trying to cut weight to make the 168 lb limit. The struggle to make weight meant his "aerobic" efforts could never be sacrificed. Joe's engine was the difference when he met Hopkins. Prime versus prime would have negated that advantage entirely. Seven years is seven years. The years mean a lot more late in a career. The flip side to that running to cut weight was Joe could never put on ANY muscle. His lack of upper development was because a little bit of muscle would have sent him up to light heavyweight. Combine Joe's horrible punch technique with his lack of arm and shoulder development meant a big SMW who didn't have equivalent power. Not early in his career not ever. The issue of his "hands" is a red herring. He simply didn't have the elements to be a big puncher - didn't have the innate timing, didn't have the footwork to get in position, didn't have the developed strength, and DID NOT throw naturally. Joe TKO'd a bunch of overweight, old, non-talents in his first 22 odd fights and many of those were dismal stoppages. After that, pretty much nothing. Weaknesses: Since Joe didn't train in the gym against any laudable talent. He was never familiar with the feints, quickness, and innate talent of REAL natural fighters (like Toney). It is hard to gauge Joe as he managed to spend most of his career fighting dismal lesser athletes almost without exception and still managed to struggle to look good. When he fought Eubank he kept walking into the same right hand for the entire fight. Fortunately, he was fighting a drained Eubank who struggled with the pace. When he fought Mitchell he got caught and rocked/dropped. Here in Vegas, when he fought an incredibly old Hopkins he kept being unable to judge the distance and his reactions were poor. He simply looked the INFERIOR athlete from ringside. Bernard looked horrible - but, there was no doubting who was the SUPERIOR boxing talent. He was simply old and unable to sustain activity (the same problem he has continued to exhibit in every fight in these years). Watching Joe advance at Bernard flailing with two handed hammers made him look an off-balance ****** that night. He looked nothing like a vaunted ATG with seven years of youth on his side - merely a man with seven years of relative youth on his side. I think Joe is a good fighter who benefited from having the promotion (and all that accrued from that) for nearly every SINGLE fight of his entire career and fighting in a terrible era (as Bernard did as well). But, he is easily a vastly overrated fighter. At his best, he managed to win barely more than half a fight against Mikkel Kessler (who edged the first half of the fight in my opinion with by far the heavier landed shots). Against Eubank, I gave him the same differential. He merely won the rounds he won by a greater distance than the rounds I gave to Chris. Against Hopkins, I gave him a slight edge only on thrown punches but his work was terrible and his accuracy dismal. But Bernard was also absolutely terrible in the fight. OTOH, he was old. Old fighters have off nights. That was his. There have been more and there will continue to be more. There is a difference between having "great legs" and having well conditioned legs. Joe is well conditioned from all of the roadwork needed to cut weight. His actual ring movement - side to side - fwd and back - the ability to bounce left and left again and vice versa - are nothing special. He has neither the extremely powerful calves so notable on Pacquaio which allows him to spring forward into range exploding the left hand before one can recognize the threat nor the ability to spin or rotate sharply with a tight turning radius. Calz simply can keep moving for twelve. As for Toney, it is irrelevant to focus on his off nights because he always had issues with weight and this comparative is about each fighter at their best. A most telling indicator of a fighter's standing, abilities, and capabilities can be evidenced in his longevity. Toney was able to fight into a very advanced old age. Toney was ALSO able to move up MULTIPLE divisions and be highly competitive. It is true that US boxing has been in a long long decline and the quality of his era and the years he has fought is certainly up for critique. But, I have no doubt that Toney would catch Joe with hard clean punches that Joe would not see coming and hurt him. I don't believe in the fallacy that Joe had an extraordinary chin. I believe he (and Frank) limited the times in entered the ring and had to face a real threat. Watching Joe at ringside and seeing how poor he was at understanding the feints from an ancient Hopkins and only being able to charge forward with his face tells me that a Hopkins from '97 to '99 would have hurt him and finished the job. Toney has an abundance of guile and is very adept at setting up a big punch. His chin is well proven all the way up to heavyweight. He would take Joe's activity until he caught a lapse and go right through the guard and crush Joe's mandible. Joe never had to face real adversity due to matchmaking and control of the environment. I don't believe he would have been prepared for true ATGs. You can't fight Woodall's and Starie's and Reid's and be prepared for fighter's with better natural punching ability than yourself. Without that experience, it is hard to paint a great scenario when he is forced onto the back foot - if he was facing a prime Hopkins, if he is feinted and hit with clean lead right hands from RJJ, or caught by a combination of crosses and hooks and uppercuts from Toney. Prime for prime, is essentially saying best against best. When conditioning is not a factor, when age is not an issue, then I don't see the talent in Joe to avoid taking real punishment as he simply did not have good defensive abilities. He won most of his fights with his offensive output and usually against guys who were inferior athletes. In a matchup with a Toney, Hopkins, or RJJ he would simply be outgunned and the most crucial factor would be timing and reflexes. Like the 100M with the 10+ sec 100m ... he is good .. but far from extraordinary. Toney by TKO.
This would be a great match up. Toney at his best I feel was much more skilled then Calzaghe and almost anyone else. I think Toney lands the best shots throughout and may even be able to take Calzaghe out with clean counter punches. If Calzaghe can take the fight the distance I think he could potentially win by out hustling Toney. Toney sometimes had issues with fighters who were busy because the judges would score a lot of the ineffective punches of the busy fighter and wouldn't be able to see that Toney is clearly the one landing the much better and more solid shots. Also if Toney comes in and has one of the lack luster performance that he was known to have even in his prime he could easily lose to Calzaghe on points. But if its Toney on a good night I have to bet on him he was extremely talented. Honestly the only fight in his career I think he actually lost all the way up to his second fight with Peter was to Roy Jones Jr every decision against him and draw for that matter I felt he deserved to win on clean effective punching.
Calzaghe via UD. Joe was very fast, hard to time, and threw many punches. This style will always beat a more conservative defensive minded counter puncher unless a lottery punch is landed. Calzaghe was seldom countered, and had a solid chin at 168. I think he beats Toney, but has a little more trouble doing it than say Roy Jones did.