Joe Calzaghe vs. James Toney @ SMW.

Thanks for saving me the effort to type in the above.

 

Agreed. I don't know why the hell so many people insist that Hopkins vs Calzaghe was a robbery. Joe both threw and landed nearly twice as many punches and according to record, landed more on Hopkins than any of his previous opponents. Sure Bernard landed shots that were better placed and more accurate, but neither guy was ever really hurt or badly stunned with the exception of the flash knockdown in round one. Calzaghe won that fight hands down. As for who was washed up, both men were old and fighting outside their best weight classes. Here we are 6 years later and Bernard is still the number one ranked light heavy, ( though I think Kovalev and Stevenson should be ranked higher at this point.)

 

Toney didn't too well against people with speed and who had good stamina, I think it would be an interesting fight but I think Calzaghe outworks him, especially at 168 where I think a Calzaghe paced fight would really effect Toney late on.

 

Speed kills, I think I am going to have to go with Joe Calzage at this weight

 

Toney had poor discipline which led to an inflated waistline that was only matched by his inflated ego. He cut corners in training, which combined with his arrogance and him knowing how much natural talent he had, meant he often underestimated his opponents, arrogantly looked down on them and figured his superior natural ability and skills would be enough to win. As a result he blew hot and cold, lost fights he shouldn't and actually underachieved in his career.

However, this a fantasy match up and as such I will assume both men are at their best. Toney could close his eyes and still tag Calzaghe at will with his right hand, this is also a man who never had a dent him when he was old, fat and past it, fighting huge heavyweights. Toney at his best walks straight through Calzaghe, outboxes him, beats him up and Calzaghe doesn't see the final bell.

 

toney and it wouldn't have been close. Joe is one of the top 3 most overated fighters to ever live. Toney would have massacred him. It would have been sad to see but Toney is on another level than joe

 

Unambiguously accurate.

 

I tend to think Toney fits this category, at least in my lifetime. And the proof is people claiming he could have massacred a guy who went undefeated for his entire career and only had a couple close fights.

Speed and activity were Toney's downfall. I can't think of a fighter who had those in spades. Oh, yes I can. Calzaghe.

This fight would be close and I am certainly not calling for a Calzaghe whitewash. It would potentially be a great, great fight because Toney would dig deep and force the issue. I just think Calzaghe's style is all wrong for James.

 

Except Calz's "speed" is nothing extraordinary and nothing unfamiliar to Toney. James from '93/'94 isn't letting Joe dictate anything. Toney is coming forward and forcing Joe to trade because that is all Joe knows. Unfortunately, Calz is the inferior puncher both in technique and diversity. Joe never faced a prime fighter like Toney and would be having to face something he never saw in a single fight in his entire boxing career. A fighter willing to trade and actually able to get the better of the exchanges causing Joe to find a solution from the outside. From the inside he gets destroyed. A better point to focus upon when rating Joe is how did he get all the way to 2006/2007 from 1997 to finally take a chance? Far too much credit is given to a fighter that managed (or was managed) to keep a paltry trinket (W A R R E NBO) to allow for "title" fights at the Rink. This is to some extent an example of facing very little but receiving an outsized projection of ability for the effort. Joe won a lot of fights. But out of them all, there are very few memorable moments. What stands out is simply how much difficulty he had with Salem, Starie, Brewer, and Bika. How he really could have been given a loss against Reid as Robin - BY A MILE - landed ALL the heavy punches. How his entire career comes down to three good rounds against a last second weight dropping Eubank, managing to win a few rounds clear in the second half of the fight against Kessler, and beating a muscle-bound Jeff Lacy from pillar to post for 12 rounds.

Then think of all the fights and rounds involving James Toney and noting that there are a multitude of stellar punches and exchanges between James and quality opponents that make you go "wow, that was great".

Joe's dominance on the scorecards mean nothing when you have the promotion for every fight. Against Sheika a couple accidental headbutts (clashes) ruined what should have been a VERY COMPETITIVE fight and there was no rematch. Against Mitchell a good battle was cut short by a ref happy to cut it short on Joe's behalf - again no return bout. I live in Vegas & California, and can tell you from only a few rows back Joe didn't land 60 clean punches against Hopkins in those 12 rounds (regardless of what compubox came up with). A rematch in Wales would have sold no matter how you look at it. Hop/Calz was an ugly terrible performance by both but at career end in the UK it would have sold. Joe didn't want it.

I know Joe is not over rated in the US because boxing has been in a long decline and he is undeniably unknown. But, he is incredibly over rated on ESB. If Joe is so difficult head to head against prime ATGs then Jermain Taylor must be the second coming too. And, we know that is not true. And for non-Americans, you couldn't find three people in a country in which sport is BIG BIZ that have any idea who Jeff Lacy or Jermaine Taylor is either.

 

There is no doubt in my mind Toney would catch Calzaghe coming in and drop him. He'd probably drop Calzaghe a couple of times. The problem for Toney is Calzaghe's recovery levels, work rate, stamina and stubbornness to lose, especially when hurt.
Joe cant hurt Toney but he can frustrate him with his awkward style and try and convince the judges he's outworking him even though not landing much clean like he did vs Hopkins.
A close fight that could go either way but I pick Toney to take it due to dropping Joe on his ass.

 

You're talking about the same guy who, in his prime, lost to Tiberi, Griffin (x2) and Thadzi, right? James has "classically pretty" skills thanks to the great Bill Miller. He was pretty to watch in a classical sense. Calzaghe was never that guy. But to the trained eye, his use of angles, his output and punch selection, his sense of timing and distance were phenomenal. It's a situation akin to Monzon wherein he never looked spectacular when looking at him in isolation. But watch how he operated his opponents and enforced his trump cards over his opponents' and then you understand his genius.

In regards to the rest of your post, Calzaghe's efforts against Benn, Lacey and Hopkins stand out pretty damn well. No one ever made Hopkins so uncomfortable.

 

Sorry, simply don't agree. His genius was apparently on vacation when I watched every one of his title fights except for a few rounds against Kessler. It really isn't a laudable trump card when you are edging an opponent with poor cards. I see a good fighter with some good attributes. I see nothing extraordinary - but maybe it's just my eyes. I seemed to be able to recognize talent when I competed against guys at university (USC) that later went on to the pro ranks in the NFL, NBA, and MLB but apparently don't have the "trained eye" to correctly differentiate between looking good against mediocre talent and looking comparable or only marginally better when facing other merely good athletes. Joe's "top flight" effort against Hopkins just missed me completely for some reason. From a few yards away he looked horribly pedestrian athletically. I guess cable adds a few qualities.

Sarcasm aside, I think the limited Pascal made Hopkins more uncomfortable then Joe did at the Thomas & Mack. Strange how after the Vegas fight no one in the casinos thought the unknown "Italian" guy was any good nor did they KNOW how they were supposed to be impressed. Must be that "trained eye" thing again. Patrons did think it was time for BHOP to retire though. Good thing that boxing has been so completely out of favor over here or we would have been fearful for Bernard's health for a decade. When nobody decent is pursuing a sport it is easy to be unable to actually discern what extraordinary actually is I suppose.

cheers

 

NFL, NBA and MLB are not boxing. And in my athletics days I raced against some of these guys, Eric Metcalf, Quincy Watts, Michael Bates... a few others you might know. So, I know what top level talent looks like (especially from behind)...

Calzaghe's pace and output had Hopkins looking for a way out in the 10th. That was the most camp acting job since Divine in Female Trouble. He cou;dn't handle Calzaghe's pace and increasing pressure. Calzaghe had him cornered at the time and Hopkins took to stalling by claiming low blow.

Again, I have listened to wags talk for 30 years about how beatable Monzon looked... yet, no one could quite manage the trick. Boxers aren't stick and ball players. Their 40 times or how much they bench don't mean ****. They are fighters. A ton of it is mental and planning.

I do appreciate your input. The only thing I can really disagree with you about is this being a massacre. No, it would not be that. Otherwise, a Toney pick is plausible. I just happen to believe at this moment that Calzaghe has the right approach and talent to beat Toney.

Cheers.

 

I have to agree, Calzage would rise to the occasion and outwork and out speed James. Calzages work rate had B-Hop looking for a rest and faking a foul to get rest...Calzage was a feisty guy and showed his class against Lacy,Kessler,Hopkins,Jones among others.

 

Toney UD - Toney's right hand counter/lead just can't miss on Calzaghe if you follow his career. Calzaghe has a chance with his workrate if he can impose it, Toney would be outworked but if/when Toney starts landing he takes control and makes Calzaghe look silly.

So what? Many people rightfully had Hopkins winning on clean punching because he obviously landed the cleaner punches.

Sheika and Veit weren't close if you actually followed the division. Until Joe stepped up to fight Lacy, a fight he wanted to pull out of, it was considered he'd pissed his career away. So many SMW fights for him to make that he avoided.

Kessler and Lacy were, they were never that amazing but good wins none the less. Hopkins was obviously at LHW.

Yea and Toney can't replicate the trouble Reid, Hopkins, Bika? You've seen little of Calzaghe if you're honest.