Sonny Liston vs Joe Frazier

Frazier did have good power and he also threw a high volume of punches. That is a tough combination to beat. Most powerpunchers look for one big shot but Joe didn`t need to load up to get concussive power like most heavyweights do.

 

Williams was able to get off first against Liston punching down with left hooks. And that's Williams! The big cat was not elite. Frazier is not punching down, which is harder, Liston is only an inch taller. Much easier for Frazier to hit.

 

It's you that are deluded friend.Ali was down ONCE in THREE fights with Frazier. Ali WON the 5th rnd of FOTC on all cards !

Frazier never beat a power puncher, he was steered clear of them.
Mathis was unranked look it up. He had 23 wins over ham and eggers,
meaningless stats similar to Lamar Clark's.

Mathis never stopped a fighter of even remote class his best win was a decision over a faded Chuvalo.

You do know Mathis was up on two scorecards? And level on referee Mercante's card?
Mathis was not knocked out, he was stopped on his feet.
Liston could fight backing up, you need to watch some of his early career. He was also an excellent infighter, again you havent watched his early fights
Liston did not "regularly get his nose and jaw broken", both occurred once each. The Jaw was broken because he had his mouth open laughing at Marshall.The nose was broken by a terrific puncher Williams
Liston doesn't have Foreman's power? Tell that to Chuck Wepner.
Chuvalo was bleeding from every crevice? Actuall he was bleed in from the injury to his right eye and that only.An injury sustained in his previous fight against Archie Ray five months earlier. As he knocked Ray down Ray jackknifed and his head collided with Chuvalo's right eye and cheek , causing the eye to blow up.He went into the Frazier fight with this unhealed injury.


http://www.torontosun.com/2011/11/09/chuvalo-remembers-frasier

Frazier had 5 fights against ATG's ,he won just one of them and that against a man who was woefully lacking in ring rounds.
Bugner is 6' 4". What relevance that has to the discussion eludes me.


How many rounds did Frazier win against Foreman in their second fight? Answer NONE` He was also dropped twice hardly an endorsement for his adaptability. In fact the didn't win a round in either fight.

Frazier's stature decreed that he had to get inside ,anyone who knows anything about boxing knows that. What was he going to do box on the retreat?

Frazier stopped Mathis on his feet Ali didnt ? Ali was not a puncher, and he could have got the stoppage if he had gone for it ,have you actually seen the fight?
By the way Ali dropped Mathis 4 times in their fight.


We are comparing these fighters in their prime have you grasped that? It's hilarious that Liston losing to Martin is mentioned by you, how old was Liston? Yet a 29 years old Frazier is supposedly washed up .:huh Judging by your unecessarily rude post I take you to be about 12 and the content of it confirms it.

Now do yourself a favour actually watch the fight ,concentrate on the 5th rd ,at 18.46 Ali momentarily slips on water in Frazier's corner, Don Dunphy comments on it .THERE IS NO KNOCKDOWN.

You embarrass yourself.

 

Watch the fights, Williams had fast hands,that's why he got off first.

Punching up is harder than punching down ,and the crouching , under 6 foot Frazier would be doing it.
Straws and clutching come to mind.atsch

 

you have made some good points, but unfortunately this is not one of them.

Although Floyd Patterson is an ATG he would not make most fans top ten where as Muhammad Ali and George Foreman would.

So where as you would say against ATGs Liston is 2-2 to Fraziers 1-4 you could also say "against top ten heavyweights" Liston is 0-2 to Fraziers 1-4. We must remember Patterson had been taken by Ingo and was also a bit short of elite rounds when Sonny got him.

 

You just move the gaol posts when they don't suit don't you?

Where fighters rank in fans top ten has absolutely no bearing on this debate whatsoever. Frazier beat one great figther and was himself beaten twice in return by him.If Ali had been prime ,with sufficient ring rounds under his belt going into MSG he would be 3-0 over Frazier imo. Then Frazier would be W0 L5 against great fighters.

Patterson was the reigning champion and had fought twice inside the previous year.

Ali had been out of the ring for 3.5 years , coming back with just 18 rds under his belt hardly the same thing.

 

Ok, Frazier did not beat the best ALi but 18 world class rounds within 44 DAYS against bonnavena and quarry has to be better prep than Patterson's 18 rounds in 39 months with Mcneeley and Johansson before fighting Liston. Remember Patterson was pounded to the floor 9 times within his 18 previous rounds! It is the "most decked ratio" per rounds fought you will ever find among great fighters.

 

Liston was 0-2 against great heavyweights he faced. Patterson was not a great heavyweight , a simple fact.

Picking Frazier`s resume apart when it`s superior to Liston`s isn`t a good tactic. Joe beat better heavyweights and cracked better chins than Sonny did.

Reading the revisionism of Joe Frazier`s great career achievements was annoying, approaching pathetic at this point. Next I can read about how Joe avoided all the top fighters on his way to the Heavyweight Gold Medal in Japan. atsch

I hate to see a great warrior`s resume picked apart with that sort of bias just to try to win a mythical debate. At the end of the day the truth is the only casualty.

Anyway I still think Liston would win the fight.

 

Liston cleaned out the division while waiting for his title shot. Frazier refused to enter the elimination tournament.
Liston has Folley,Dejohn,King,Machen,Harris, Patterson x2 ,Williamsx2 .
ie several good wins, and two great ones.


Frazier has Quarry x2,Ellis x2,Chuvalo,Ali.
Frazier has one great win, two good wins [Ellis& Quarry] and respectable wins over a past prime Quarry and Ellis. He also has three defences over shameful contenders,Ziggy,Stander ,and Daniels.

Who beat the better heavyweights is open for debate,
[actual , not mythical]

That is not revisionist, it is FACT .

A debate that is happening cannot by definition be mythical, it must be actual.
I find the misuse of nouns annoying and pathetic as it is applied in your post .
At the end of the day the English language is the only casualty.

 

Muhammad Ali or Floyd Patterson?
Jerry Quarry or Zora Folley?
Jimmy Ellis or Eddie machen?
Oscar Bonnavena or Roy Harris?
George Chuvalo or Cleveland Williams?

To help you decide remember how highly each were regarded before being beaten by either sonny or joe. The curent form against current fighters must be taken into account. How much chance was each given to win against Sonny or Joe going by recent form? How recently they had been defeated or indeed knocked out. How many elite fighters each tangled with up unto that time etc.

 

Oscar Bonavena is also a solid scalp for Frazier. I picked Liston for the win early and yet I lack conviction in my own pick because Joe's heart was immeasurable. Frazier like Marciano had will of steel and only Liston's physical gifts would suppress Joe's intangibles. Mcvey is correct on Joe's defenses they were sorely lacking .

 

Do you think I need help from you?
Do help YOU decide,a past prime Patterson beat Chuvalo, Bonavena ,drew with Quarry and was robbed against Ellis..That puts Frazier's wins against them into perspective.
Now do you want to get back to the point?

I wonder where that idiot." I pay for making a prat of myself" has gone after I replied to him?:think

 

Frazier loses to Liston and Foreman seven days a week and twice on Sundays, it isnt about tearing down a reputation its about cold assessment of a fighters style and what he brings to the table. For the same reason I see Ike Williams beating Armstrong at Lightweight.

Trouble is if you tell the truth as you see it you are accused of the assassination of a legend. There's a damn good reason Frazier did not fight the super punchers .His manager was too smart to allow it.
They took Foreman because they did not want to go anywhere near Ali again." get him while he is raw , untested,and crude" was the rationale. After the fight, when asked what happened Durham said," he got hit,didn't you see the same fight I did?"

 

Yes that was my original thought on the fight as well. Bad matchup for Frazier. The guys he beat weren't big punchers, quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Ali, etc none of them wacked like Foreman or Liston. The only reason I hesitate is because there was no quit in Joe and we know what Liston did when pushed back twice against Ali. However Liston was old and slow and Ali fights entirely different than Joe.

 

I think we have to throw out the Ali fights and judge Liston on his work priro to that.