Let's try and improve Primo Carnera

No one suggests that he could not fight at all
Just that over a third of his wins were bought and paid for.

Can we see proof of Liston's fixed fights please?
Stribling used to tour the tank towns and challenge anyone in the crowd.His chauffeur would duly take up the challenge and succumb to a ko punch at some point Striblings two fights with Carnera are widely believed to have both been arrranged Carnera's manager said they were rehearsed in the presence of Pa Stribling, when the revelations first came out Pa was asked to comment , he declined.
Maloney could punch a bit but suffered with a dodgy set of whiskers.
Stribling could really fight ,and looking at Liston's early record one has to wonder who would have had to be paid to lay down to him out of those names?
But you're going to tell us ,aren't you?

 

Lets capsulate him.

+ Very big
+Very imposing
+ Fair mechanical boxer who looked like he had learned by numbers

- Didnt have a sturdy chin.

_ Didnt punch his weight.
_ Came apart when tagged.

Verdict
I think his potential was emphatically cultivated and the harvest exceeded all expectations.

 

A polishing up of skills could have better utilized his size for more effective punching as well as tightening things up defensively. I also think that at 260 lbs he could have lost some weight - Another thing fixable through improved training. As for his chin, he was only stopped a handful of times in 102 fights, two of which coming against elite punchers. Not exactly what I'd call an indication of a poor chin, though I wouldn't put it in the Chuvalo, McCall, Cobb category either.

 

He was wobbled by Loughran once, staggered in several fights and dropped by lhvy Stribling. Not exactly reassuring. I dont think he could have lost any weight he was naturally muscle bound from his circus days as a strong man. Look at him and compare him to the slobs around today Arreola and Solis come to mind.
The guy had a big heart though,it was heartwarming that he made money in Wrestling, years after the blood suckers had left him destitute.

 

Oh common McVey. Primo Carnera was an ATG who would have left Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Lewis, and Klitschko begging for their very lives. Think of the nickname " ambling Alp"... He was nicknamed after a mountain!!!! He could eat a california red wood tree and crap out a mansion fit for a king!!!!!

 

Proof is a very strong word.

There are very few if any historic fights, that we can say were fixed beyond reasonable doubt.

For practical purposes, they fall into three categories:

1. Allegation, (i.e. it is alleged but there is no or poor supporting evidence).

2. Reasonable suspicion, (i.e. some supporting evidence).

3. Balance of probability, (this is pretty much the graduation point for a fix).

 

You said both Braddock and Baer had allegations of fixed fights levelled against them.I've asked for proof

Are you going to produce proof, or are you going to weasel out once again.
SIMPLE ANSWER REQUIRED, AS THERE WAS TO MY FIRST QUESTION THAT YOU IGNORED.ie NAME THE CHAMPIONS WHO HAD FIXED FIGHTS?

You Do remember asking this question ?


"Can you name any champion of the period who was not involved in some crooked fights?[/quote]"
And you DO remember ignoring my response?

"Why don't you name us some that were?:think"



YES OR NO?

Do you know, you make Mendoza look good.

Now do you want to retract what you've said, or continue taking the cowardly way out and ignoring the requests for proof of your allegations?

 

"


Fair enough.

I'm pretty sure Gene Tunney and Max Schmeling have been accused of being in fixed fights, at heavyweight.
George Godfrey. Jack Sharkey. (..... oh, yeah, and 30-odd heavyweights who tanked for Carnera!)

Personally, I'd suspect almost all of them. Not just then, but nowadays too.

 

This one could satisfy both sides of the argument (Braddock v Baer) :

Phelan, chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission, denied reports that last night's fixed was "fixed". Phelan said he is "certain the fight was on the level"


[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=266&dat=19350611&id=cuYjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=60MDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5925,5839245[/url]

 

Towards the end of Jeff Moshier's PLAYING SQUARE COLUMN echoes the same sentiments :

[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19350614&id=qulPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=y1QDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2867,1535680[/url]


There is talk that the fight wasn't on the up and up but this is highly improbable ........ etc.

 

-+.

I agree that the fight was almost certainly on the level, but it shows how easily alegations were made.

 

I'm not sure you can use the 'looking at the records' method if at the same time you're insisting that Carnera's record was a complete fraud.

I mean, name the 30 fighters that you say tanked for Carnera, and apply the same logic.

On film, Carnera looks good enough to beat a string of bums without an outright bribe or solid "fix".

But having said that, I think gross mismatches are just as bad as explicit fixes anyway.

 

Well, he might have known some guys were laying down for him.
Obviously it would NOT have been smart to say he DID know.

My guess is that A LOT of those bums laid down out of sheer fear. I've seen it loads of times in heavyweight mismatches. Say what you want about his fighting ability, he was a bloody intimidating specimen, and he certainly would be for most out-of-shape fourth-rate bums, many of whom were way under 200 pounds.
It would seem pointless to bribe all those guys, a waste of money.

 

I haven't said Carnera's record was a complete fraud.I've said his manager stated that over 30 of his fights were fixed.

Any of Liston's opponents have their purses with held?

Any of them have their licences withdrawn ?

Some of Carnera's opponents did.

Look it up.