Let's try and improve Primo Carnera

The argument of his detractors seems to be, that the bums who padded his early record were paid to lie down for him (where there is limited surviving press coverage), but that he legitimately beat the ranked contenders who paved his way to a title shot.

A. This seems a bit implausible.
B. It basically leaves him with the most important part of his resume intact, even if it is true!

One thing we do best on this site is challenge long held assumptions, and I suggest we give Carnera a retrial.

 

Max Baer v Dutch Weimar

Mitchell Hepburn, the premier of Ontario, called it a fake, a fiasco and a disgrace. And he made changes to the Ontario Athletic commission following the bout.

With Baer heading towards Montreal, the Athletic commissioner there declared that he wouldn't let any Montreal promoter stage a Baer bout.

[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1946&dat=19361022&id=P38tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_pgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3838,2627083[/url]

[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1876&dat=19361023&id=_EosAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zMoEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6781,4533491[/url]

[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1129&dat=19361021&id=fpopAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qGkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5774,4221647[/url]

 

Legitimately beat ranked contenders ?.

Well lets look at them.

Godfrey is believed to have fouled out on purpose.

Loughran was outweighed by over 80lbs past his prime ,and was never off his feet.
Lasky was unranked .
Uzcudun was unranked.
Gorman was unranked and believed to have gone in the tank anyway.
Maloney was unranked.
Neusel retired with a cut eye an injury he carried in the ring from his last fight against Jack Peterson some months before.
Schaaf was a "dead man walking".
Striblings two fights with Carnera are widely held to be fakes.

Levinsky's two fights with the Alp are thought to be legit.

Sharkey comfortably won the first fight dropping Carnera, the second is viewed with suspicion till this day.


So what do we have?
Wins over Levinsky,Loughran , and Neusel. That is not," the most important part of his record intact," far from it!

Anyone wanting to learn more about Carnera's career could do worse than read Box rec's account of it.

[url]http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Primo_Carnera[/url]


I take it you won't be providing any evidence to back up your smears of two now dead heavyweight champions?
Pretty shameful in my view.

 

You can stop arguing.
I've already posted the Baer/Weimar allegations.

 

I will rest on that.

 

No charges ,no hearing, no evidence that Baer was ever involved in any wrong doing. Baer's next fight was in the UK, against Farr thats quite a way from Montreal I wont stop arguing until Janitor provides proof of his two allegations, you are irrelevant to that .

 

Well, that's a bit silly, imo.
We're all supposedly talking about the historical record/facts.
I'm irrelevant, yes, but the historical facts should be relevant. You prefer to indulge yourself in a personal feud with janitor ... and that's your right, and none of my concern ........ but you could at least acknowledge that proof of allegations has been provided.
(Not "janitor's" allegations, or mine, or yours ... but THE historic ones - which was the whole point).

These facts :
1. The Governor of Ontario, have just watched the fight in Toronto, immediately sacks the Athletic commissioner, and makes a statement about the fight being "fake, fiasco, disgrace."
2. Meanwhile, the chairman of the commission in Montreal says Baer is persona non-grata in his town in a boxing capacity.
3. And Baer's tour goes no further.

Sorry, but if that was Carnera, you'd be calling it proof or something close to it.

It seems the burden of proof, the threshold, is completely different for the one and the other. AKA double standards.

 

Carnera had opponents that were suspended and had their licences revoked.His own manager admitted to buying over 30 fights. You talk about burden of proof what more do you need?
Not you irrelevant but your input
in so much as Janitor made allegations and refused to back them.

 

You are a weasel.
Rest on that.

 

Yeah, but look at the fights he alleged to have been fake. If you apply the same logic you've apply to Baer or Liston, you'd have to question if Carnera would really NEED help there.
As has been mentioned, the manager might have had an axe to grind. I mean, Doc Kearns 'admitted' to doctoring Dempsey's gloves against Willard, but it's not generally accepted as proven.

Also, lots of fighters were/are suspended and have their licenses revoked, for "poor performance" or "not trying" ... and many more SHOULD BE, imo .... but does it automatically mean they were BRIBED or FORCED to lose ?
No, it doesn't.

As I've said before, to me it's all the same thing. If a fighter is built up on bums in awful mismatches that's just as bad as any type of "fix". So, to me I don't draw a distinction there.

I don't strongly disagree with your views on Carnera at all. But I do think he's getting judged by harsher standard, and others are getting off scot-free.

 

My beef isnt with you, its with Janitor who twice made statements and when called on them shut up shop.I detest that.
He said both Baer and Braddock were in fixed fights. Baer's opponent may have suffered from a real lack of ambition but since he and his manager were only getting $400 to face one of the hardest hitters ever its possibly understandable he took the easy way out.No charges were ever brought against Baer. Braddock had his licence revoked because he went into a fight with a broken hand, during the fight he re-injured it, breaking it in two places in what was described as a grotesque injury with bone fragments being visible under the skin he wasnt slung out for engaging in a fixed fight , nor did he quit he did the best he could until the referee called time on it and slung them out.
Liston and Baer could both hit like a horse kicking, and both had top chins .

Carnera was lacking in power especially for his size. There was always the danger that

1. His chin would be found out and 2. he would be out pointed by a smaller more agile operator .

Janitor, who does not have the balls to admit he has no evidence to back up his claims, blackens the names of two men who had real balls. That's what pissed me off
You gave him a lifeline to crawl out with and he took it without providing jack **** himself. Have a good day.:good

 

Max Baer had dropped a 6-round decision to sparring partner Willie Davies (a loss mistakenly attributed to Art Oliver in some older record bookd) in his outing previous to the Dutch Weimar fight .... so, it's not exactly beyond reason to suspect that Weimar was under orders. I mean, there's a possible motive.
On the other hand, YES, it's not hard to find guys "lacking in ambition" when they step in with such a renowned puncher.

But, I would imagine that was the case with most of Carnera's bad fights too.
Throw a washed-up, out-of-shape, fourth-rate 185-pound ham-and-egger in with a 270-pound man-mountain and you could expect him to be looking for the way out. Don't you think?
Doesn't matter if Carnera can't fight, or couldn't punch - his sheer size and strength is no joke.