Thank you Only around half of Calzaghes fights were in his home country of Wales and he was away a fair bit. The KD to Hopkins you make sound like Calzaghe was nearly out of it, which is not the case, he was caught when square on, got up and went on the attack. As for Ward having a better resume atsch. Wards best win is unwell double vision suffering, past best, rusty Kessler who Calzaghe beat when prime. Still Still nobody can counter this This content is protected Calzaghe beat 3 undefeated fighters who had or went on to claim a SMW title. This content is protected 1. Someone tell me which top undefeated fighters Ward has beaten? 2. Tell me which top undefeated world champs Ward has fought? Lets read the answers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This content is protected Andre Ward............VS.............Joe Calzaghe Froch.....................................Kessler This content is protected (Kessler beat Froch) Kessler...................................Eubank This content is protected Dawson..................................Lacy (Lacy a proven SMW and winner of 5 SMW title fights. Dawson no pedigree at all at SMW) This content is protected Abraham.................................Mitchell (Mitchell a 2 time SMW champ who had never been clearly beaten, only lost by debateable SD in Germany to Ottke, had KOd long time SMW champ Liles, beaten a future SMW champ twice, compared to AA who had done nothing at SMW) This content is protected Bika.......................................Brewer (Bika beaten by Calzaghe when prime, Brewer had beaten H Graham and was a SMW champ) This content is protected (Bika was a Calzaghe left over at that time and had been out of the ring bar less than a round for a while) Green.....................................Woodhall (Woodhall a SMW champ, who had beaten a reigning SMW champ, a world rated former champ, a future SMW champ and Branco a world rated SMW who became WBA LHW champ, who at SMW beat R Reid and G Johnson who when old and shot KOd Green) This content is protected Miranda...................................Bika (Bika now a top 5 SMW had drawn with 3 time SMW champ Beyer) This content is protected Buchanan (?????)......................Sheika This content is protected (Sheika was coming off a win over G Johnson and was a top 10 SMW at the time) Camou (?????)..........................Veit (Veit a SMW title holder who had a fair resume, better than at least 2 of the current top 5 SMWs) This content is protected Then include the This content is protected win and then the other top 10 SMWs and its clear Calzaghe is well ahead. I could have put This content is protected ahead of Green, Camou, Miranda, Buchanon Very clear but nobody will have a sensible answer to say otherwise, it will just be a lame Faileys losing it answer when they cant debate against Somebody tell me how Ward has done more than that. Nobody can counter the above or answer the questions. In fact they hide from the questions
Problem with unbeaten fighters is simply that... we actually don't know what their ceiling was. The standard argument is weakness of resume, but ultimately we don't know for sure who coulda or woulda beaten them. Clearly he's not overated by the TS and every fighter has their hardcore fans who could be claimed to 'overrate' them (which I tiredly suppose is the point of the thread), - but I think the consensus is probably that Zaggy was a top fighter, champion and worthy hall of Famer.
Believe it or not.. The great Sugar Ray Leonard has a loss that dates back to Joe Calzaghe.. But I won't post it, becuase people in this thread obviously need to do their homework on Super Joe.:yep
Oh, because the UK is so much different. He had what, two fights in the States? Froch - Kessler: Yes Kessler beat Froch, but Froch beat Kessler too, that cancels out. Kessler's resume is full of average level fighters and cans, Froch was the one who went and exposed Bute when everyone was avoiding him, has wins over Abraham, Dirrell, Jermaine Taylor etc. Far superior resume to Kessler. Better win: Froch Ward: 1 | Calzaghe: 0 Kessler - Eubank: Aren't you the one who said you have to take things into account when they fought them? Eubank had been in a ton of wars, he by his own admission was on the decline. He never won another match again after Calzaghe, losing twice more, to retire with a 3 fight losing streak. There is a good reason he retired despite being 31 bailey, he was shot, he knew it. Honestly these wins are about even for when they fought them, as Kessler wasn't at his very best either. TIE. Ward: 1 | Calzaghe: 0 Dawson - Lacy: Dawson was the WBC, WBA Super champ (legit one) and the Ring Magazine champ of his division. Jeff Lacy's best wins are over Pemberton and Reid, get out of here, the man went 5-4 after Calzaghe, he is a scrub. Dawson's resume isn't great, but two wins over Tarver and Glen Johnson are superior to anything on Lacy's pathetic resume. Oh yeah, and Dawson actually beat Grandpa Hopkins decisively, unlike your boy who got floored, and only won by heavily disputed split decision. Dawson is better. Ward: 2 | Calzaghe: 0 Abraham - Mitchell: The mighty Mitchell, Mr. 29-11. Remember as you say we have to take in to account the time they fought them, right? Ok so when Calzaghe fought him, he was coming off a loss to Sven Ottke. His record from Sven Ottke to when he retired? 4-10, yes that's right, 4-10. Wanna hear something funnier? He got stopped in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM :rofl:rofl This guy was never good to begin with, but by the time Calzaghe came to scrape up Ottke's leftover, he was absolute garbage. 4-10 from the Ottke fight bailey, getting stopped every single ****ing time. Hell, I don't even have to make an argument for Abraham here, just the fact he was a live body makes him superior. His fights before Ward fought him? A DQ against Dirrell, when he clearly won, he got DQed for hitting him after he knocked him nearly out cold. Beat Jermaine Taylor, lost to Froch, beat Stjepan Bozic. Ward atleast fights a guy coming off a win, and recent victories over Taylor and a clear besting of Dirrell are far superior to the fighter Mitchell was when Calzaghe scraped Ottke's leftovers onto his plate. Ward: 3 | Calzaghe: 0 Bika - Brewer: Brewer is 40-11, already had what 8 or 9 losses before Calzaghe came calling? Thirteen years into his career, far past his prime, mediocre fighter by the time Calzaghe got to him. Sakio Bika was still a decent fighter when Ward got to him, far superior to what condition Brewer was in. This is a faceoff between just decent and pretty bad, with Bika being a decent win for the time Ward fought him, Brewer pretty bad for when Calzaghe fought him. Ward: 4 | Calzaghe: 0 Green - Woodhall: Calzaghe was Woodhall's last fight of his career, he was at the very end of his career. Stop trying your bull**** tracing methods, where you try to declare somebody great because they beat this decent fighter who beat this guy who beat this one, and you trace it until it goes to a good fighter, that's a desperation attempt at making a point. His best wins are against Thulani Malinga and Vincenzo Nardiello. Someone being a "champ" means jack **** now when there are a gazillion belts, and politics who control everything. Neither of those guys were great fighters, period, you know that. With that said, unlike you, I can admit to things. I won't try some bull**** tracing through 6 fighters to claim Green is some monster win, he isn't. Calzaghe's win gets the nod here. Ward: 4 | Calzaghe: 1 Miranda - Bika: Neither one of these guys have any good wins honestly. Miranda surely has declined, Ward fought him before he was on a losing streak though. You mention Bika is "top 5 SMW now" when you have also said "you have to take into account where they were at when they fought them." So which is it Bailey? Are we going strictly off when Ward and Calzaghe faced them, or all time? You can't even get your story straight, you just choose whatever suits your agenda. When Calzaghe faced Bika, he was 20-1-2, having never faced anyone semi decent. Miranda on the other hand doesn't have great wins, but has far superior wins for when Ward fought him, compared to when Calzaghe fought Bika. Markus Beyer, Yoshihiro Araki (2x), Juarne Dowling, Rico Chong Nee. Ever heard of those guys? Exactly. Those were the guys Bika fought before facing Calzaghe. He was a guy who was still fighting .500 level journeyman, stop acting like Calzaghe beat a beast in his prime. Ward: 5 | Calzaghe: 1 Buchanan - Sheika You're going all the way to when Ward only had 17 professional fights, and was still building up, are you that desperate? This means nothing. Oh really, I'm gonna hide from it? Looks like I just answered it and countered it, and gave you the exact answers you said weren't possible. Mind you, this is with you having all the advantages, and I still countered. For one, you got to pick all the matchups there, I can easily pair up different people and make Calzaghe look even worse. You pairing up a guy like Shieka, who Calzaghe faced when he had nearly 30 fights already, to a guy Andre Ward was facing when he was green, with 17 fights is a desperation move. Even having the advantage to cherry pick your own specific pairings I shot down your points, Calzaghe is an overrated bum, that's a fact. Oh, and one convenient fact you ignore. ANDRE WARD ONLY HAS 27 FIGHTS, CALZAGHE has 46. That's right Bailey, a man who has only 27 fights to his name can not only compete, but completely annihilates the resume of your hero who has already finished his career, and has 46 fights. Don't you think that alone is pretty sad? Ward is just getting started, and yet in this short work, has already outdone Calzaghe. Can you imagine how bad he will have Calzaghe smoked if he gets up to 46 fights? See Bailey, I have answered all your points that supposedly nobody could, and that was supposed to have me running for cover. You had all the advantages: You picked the pairings, you have a guy with 46 fights, vs a guy with only 27, you had all the handicaps in your favor. Yet still Calzaghe falls short, and is revealed for the true scrub that he is. Calzaghe is a solid fighter, who fanboys have created an elaborate smoke and mirrors facade for, to pretend he was great. He isn't, and you need to accept that. I've answered you directly now, and have proven my point. Your main "evidence" is tracing who beat who for 5 to 6 fighters in a row, basically the throw everything until something sticks routine, until something traces back to Calzaghe, so you can praise him. I could play the same games too, but I never did, that **** is too easy, you can do that for ANY DECENT FIGHTER who has a decent amount of matches. Now bailey, don't act like you're actually in a debate here. You worship Calzaghe, and nothing can convince you otherwise. I'm moving on to do other things now, okay? I haven't dodged anything, and my point has been proven. You can sit and do your garbage tracing through 5 or 6 this guy beat this one who beat him who Calzaghe beat routine, but it means jack ****. When directly examined, his resume is utter ****, it falls apart. Pretty sad a guy with 27 fights is already vastly superb, Calzaghe will be a distant memory if Ward gets anywhere near that many fights. Bye now :hi:
We all know bailey comes out to defend his hero when he gets put down like the overrated fool that he is.
Joe overachevied really. Remember he was an owner of the WBO wrthless title before it gained credence. So you would never expect him to go on and win a major world title. just as you would never expect a wbu/ibo/wbf title holder today to win a real title. So imagine an equivalent titleholder today, say with a WBF or IBO title that no one wants, makes 20 defences against largely weaklings, but then in his last defence raises his game to captures some real titles, that's a pretty good effort going from a decade long subnational nobody to partially unifying world titles (albeit for a few minutes since he dumped them before making another fight). So he'd then have to run away from the tougher real world title defences like Joe Calzaghe did, of course, by immediately dumping the titles and then going off to do a Mundine, finding weakened 40somethings to face.
Some people in this thread really do merit a mauling. Minions can expect to be thrashed around by Team Elite imminently.
He will have no logical counter, his "arguments" have been thoroughly, and utterly shut down. He got to pick the pairings for comparing wins, he has a fighter with 46 fights vs a guy with only 27 fights, hell he got every possible handicap in his favor. Despite having every possible advantage, I have unequivocally proven what an overrated bum Calzaghe is, and put forth incontrovertible evidence that Ward is already far superior to Calzaghe. The fact a guy with only 27 fights to his name can utterly demolish the resume of a retired fighter with 46 fights is utterly pathetic, it shows what an overrated farce Calslappy really is. Just imagine if Ward had 46 fights; he owns Calzaghe's resume with the field tilted towards Calzaghe having way more fights, just imagine what would happen if it started from a level playing field? If we are to compare Calzaghe's first 27 wins to Wards first 27, Calzaghe is a total can, while Andre Ward is #2 p4p . Bailey loves to proclaim how he can supposedly send the people who call out Calzaghe "running for cover," but that's utter horse ****. No, people just give up, because they realize they are talking to someone so utterly biased, there is no chance of enlightenment. When someone points out the truth about Calzaghe, bailey turns into the equivalent of a kindergarten child putting his fingers in his ears going "NANNA NANNA CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!" The man is so far separated from reality that he goes to such measures as going "well Calzaghe beat this bum who beat this guy who beat this dude who beat this guy who beat that guy who beat that other guy who was some paper champion, so clearly that's an amazing win for Calzaghe!!!!" :rofl Seriously, how pathetic is that? He was tracing **** through 5 or 6 people like that to try to justify the bums Calzaghe beat as supposedly being "great fighters." Notice his argument originally started with all the "great champions" Calzaghe beat? I shut that argument down in an instant. The majority of "champions" he beat were total bums who won vacant titles, or beat absolute cans who were handed the title. The two legit champions he beat were RJJ and Hopkins. RJJ was nothing more than a corpse who had been knocked out multiple times already. Calzaghe flat out said he had no interest in fighting Roy when Roy was prime, saying he wasn't looking for difficult fights. After Roy got knocked out multiple times and was nothing but a corpse, there is a video of Calzaghe saying he felt "Roy had slowed down enough" so he was willing to fight him now, quite the champ isn't he? Grandpa Hopkins floored him and many say beat him. Calzaghe literally has absolutely 0 wins against any legit champions in their prime. There was a reason he hid overseas for so long, not daring to show up in America to face the legit contenders, he didn't want to be exposed. This will forever be remembered as the time bailey was shut down for good. I'm sure he'll scrounge together some utter nonsense like always, using his pathetic tracing routine. He knows that he needs to resort to utter blasphemy like that, because upon direct examination, I have unequivocally demolished every argument he has put forth.
I went ahead and demolished bailey's little chart that he got to handpick with his matchups, lets see if he can answer a chart I make where I compare Ward's 27 fights to Calzaghe's first 27. Calzaghe utterly lost to Ward's resume in the matchup, despite Calzaghe having 46 fights to Ward's 27. Lets even the playing field, Calzaghe's first 27 compared to Ward's 27. This shall be utterly hilarious to see.
