Firpo or Sanders: Who do you rank higher at heavy?

I agree that he got a lot better after the Purityfight. But when did he really start getting a lot better. Was it not after the Brewster fight? At this point, he accepted his poor chin and developed a style where he was safety first and immediately clinched when he was hurt. This is a big thing, particularly with Sanders, who hurt him early. Does anyone really give Sanders any chance of repeating against Wlad from Say theChagaev fight?

By the same token, if Firpo lands the same shot against Wlad, as he did against Dempsey, (both ATG) does anyone really give Wlad, even a prime Wlad any chance of getting back up and winning the fight? (This of course is not to rank Firpo anywhere near Wlad because he shouldnt be).

I am not particularly high on Firpo. I thought Sanders would earn a slight edge, before i made the last post. The reality is that neither of these two fighters are as good as most lineal champions or are in the same class as the very best of their time. Still, Firpo has a wider resume and actually beat more world class fighters, or fighters who at the time were in the top 10 fighters in the world. Obviously how you rank the Wlad fight is the real clincher, but it is not fair to give Sanders credit for this win, without giving Brewster (at least similar credit). I dont think this alone would be enough to rank either fighter above Firpo.


by the way, (and i am happy to be shown wrong as i am not checking on dates, results and retirements), But, the Day after Sanders KOd Wlad would it be fair to say that Wlad was not a top 10 fighter. Off the cuff, would the top 10 in the world at this time not read something like this:

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Vitali Klitchsko
3. Mike Tyson (had he lost to Lewis or Williams at this time)
4. John Ruiz
5. Chris Byrd (although he would later lose to Wlad, he should be ranked higher than him until this loss happened)
6. Lamon Brewster (he would go on to Knockout this version of Wlad)
7. Roy Jones (not sure of the time frame but this was before the Tarver loss and he had beat or would beat Ruiz)
8. James Toney - Must have beaten Holyfield by then and would have been highly ranked i think.
9. Nicolai Valuev - i think he had a belt at this time, and had beaten a few good fighters.
10. I wont put in single names, but Rahman, Maskaev, Tua, Holyfield, Golota, Williams, Donald and quite a few others would have been considered for the top 10 at this time.
11. Sanders.

Point being, that a win over Wlad (before he had improved like he ultimately would) might not have even been a win over a top 10 fighter. It is impressive but nowhere near as impressive as it sounds. The point is, is a win over a fighter whose accepted level of development places him below the caliber of fighters taht are Brewster, Sanders and Purity (he wasnt just beaten but was kod by all three) really enough to rank you over a guy who has beaten, knocked down and gone the distance with three clear world champions. I dont think it is. I am not convinced that this win is as good as say Joe Choynski over Jack Johnson, Max Schmelling over Joe Louis, Hasim Rahman over Lennox Lewis and the list goes on. These fighters need to be judged more on other wins than there one off thunder. It would be ludicrous to rank Schmelling no 1 heavyweight of all time, even though the guy he beat (Louis) may arguably be the best fighter ever to be beaten by anyone.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6_BPrWdN4

I think Firpo's telegraphed right hand (ironically not dissimilar to Sanders telegraphed left hand) looks a lot like the right hand thrown at 5.20 of this clip. In that fight, sanders didnt have a right hand guard and barely a left guard, certainly not one when he throws his left hand. Film seems to show that if Firpo lands on Sanders the way he did on Dempsey, then the fight is over.

 

Very good post. I don't agree with every word, but it's good.

Yes, Firpo beat people who were considered very good in his day. Let's be honest, those guys really were not that good though. Firpo's claim to fame is that he knocked Dempsey out of the ring and there is a famous painting of it (got a print of it hanging up in my basement). What happened in round 2 though. Willard was an old fart that wasn't even that good to begin with.

Sanders didn't beat to many top fighters, ok he only beat one who was at the top when he beat him (who would get even better after Sanders beat him), but he was a good fighter with plenty of good tools.

Sanders did give V. Klitschko and Rahman some scares though (especially Rahman). This was Rahman at his best. Vitali was pretty much at his best as well.

Sanders won the WBO "world title" belt when he beat Wlad.

 

Here's how I see it. Sanders had far more skill but was rarely well conditioned and a front runner. Firpo , not as bad as some here cry, awkward like a Bonavena or a Berbick is more like it, was far more courageous. I see Firpomsurviving the early storm and stopping a fading Sanders after eight.

 

I'm picking Sanders. Firpo chose not to train and his skills were limited. His performance against Wills was notable, but I'm not convinced about what happened against Dempsey. It looks like he might have pushed Dempsey out of the ring. Let's face it, Dempsey slaughtered him.

 

Dempsey was down three times and should have lost the fight on a disqualification. Yes he did a number but Dempsey was an animal and Firpo kept getting up, showing tremendous heart

 

Sanders could be Ko'd but he had fast hard-hitting hands for a big man at 6'4 and was a southpaw, I pick him over Firpo who was a wild man of the Pampas and a puncher but against Sanders he would be the wild man of the Pampers IMO and get KO'd promptly

 

Except Sanders hands were fast as greased lightning and he threw in fast combo's… and he generally… generally… knew how to set up punches… Oh, and he had quick and light feet in his hey day. Pretty much every aspect of boxing he excelled at over Firpo.

 

Greased Lightning? It was good for the era of heavyweights, but nothing Firpo wont have seen before. Certainly his speed and power was nowhere near that of Dempsey's, so you would expect at the very least that speed wouldnt stop Firpo from testing the chin.

I am not sure why you think that Sanders can be described as quick and light on his feet. He has good size and power and is quick considering this, but he isnt a cross between Muhammed Ali and Mike Tyson that your post seems to make him out to be.

 

This is a completely unjustifiable position.

I am sorry but a win over anybody with some sort of world class credentials, has to rate much higher than a defeat to Rahman.

If it means that much to you I will loose a fight against Rahman.

 

Sanders win over Klitschko is just the gift that keeps on giving.

My problem here is that it is basically his only big win.

 

:good, I've never seen so many nuthuggers so giddy over a guy who had 1 great night in a mediocre career, he KO'D Wlad sooooooooo did, Ross Purrity, and Lamon Brewester sent him to the ER...

The only reason Wlad hasn't lost in a very long time is because he's allowed to get away with so much hugging and holding in comfy Germany:deal, if the guy was fighting in the states he would have lost a long time ago, i won't even watch his fights anymore id rather go outside and mow the lawn...

Sanders was a fair part time fighter with lousy conditioning, who was waxed by Nate tubbs, KO'D by Rahman, and was blasted out in 1 round to some dude named Osborne Machimana...

 

Two of those knock downs were flash knock downs. I just watched the fight again and it sure looks like Firpo pushed Dempsey out of the ring. Firpo did show heart, but consider what was at stake. The heart factor should also be applied to vigorous training. It takes real guts to get in top shape and live a life of self-denial like a gladiator.

 

perhaps on the day AFTER Sanders KO'd Wlad, Klit's rating may have dropped out of the top 10 or to the very bottom of it. Sanders was unranked prior to that so yeah. A loss to an unranked guy will generally do that to someone's rating,especially if its a devastating one. But Sanders KO'd a man who was #1 behind the champion that night.