Prime Sonny Liston vs Prime wladimir klitschko

Listons jab is a slower, power jab that wont have the kind of effectiveness on Wlad you're projecting because Wlad won't be there to eat the power jabs. And he'll be firing back quicker, hard hitting jabs on those openings. Wlad's got that luxury because of superior movement and speed. Sonny doesn't. He'll have to work in straight lines because he doesn't have the mobility to use angles on Wlad.

Liston's punishing, deliberate, bullying style isn't suited to win this fight. Not against a calculating fighter with the combination of power, range, and athleticism Wlad brings to the table. Liston would be trying to get inside because that's where he could score. I see him eating too much punishment to get there to win.

 

That's the fallacy I warned against- just because Ali could do it doesn't mean Wlad had to be as good as Ali to replicate it. Sonny was slow. He was good enough and had the tools to still dominate most of the fighters he fought, but I think Wlad's better equipped to fight that fight than anyone else on Liston's ledger.

I cant say I'd be shocked if Liston wins because at that level of heavyweight boxing most outcomes are at the very least possible, but I do have Wlad as a solid favorite.

 

Has Wlad ever faced and beat an aggressive offensive minded fighter?
Sam Peter gave Wlad a run for his money, Sanders annihilated him.
Has Wlad ever faced a decent jab? no, let alone one of the best ever in
Listons. Remember this is not Liston taking a dive, all of Wlad's footwork will
be negated. Look at what Brewster endured in fight 1, hell even Brock took
a bunch of shots before getting KOed. Liston definitely eats some bombs maybe even takes a knee, Wlad gets handled.

 

he would out jab Wlad easy ?

I doubt that.

 

wlad has matured, like lewis did into a calm collected hardly ever troubled fighter, and takes less risks, a 6'6 fighter with a ****ing powerful jab and a booming right, is very hard to get inside off, i dont think liston could do it, no doubt he would ko wlad if he continously got inside to throw his wicked shots, but who has done that in 10years? even haye elusive and as quick as he was couldnt get in, if he was scared or not, he couldnt do it! and povetkin a decent boxer could not do it. when i think opponents to beat wlad, i think tysons, fraziers sharp punchers bobbing weaving non stop machines, and superior boxers ali, holmes,lewis and i also think joe louis has better subtle movement than liston, i dont look at liston as a cert to beat an accomplished klitchko. its 70/30 in wlads favour.

 

You've explained nothing. Liston had an uncommly long reach (fact). You may not care how long his arms were but Wlad may disagree with you after he tastes a few jabs. I never said anything about his reach being 84 inches or not.

I already said Liston was 6-1 so you appear to be arguing with yourself at this point and your losing. If you had a stronger point you wouldn't have to work so hard to believe it.

With that said I agree Wlad fights tall very well and he does control range well. I don't discount his chances as my original post indicates.
Wlad also fights with his hands low because most shorter heavyweights can't reach him. This would be a mistake with Liston for obvious reasons. There's no point in denying the tools Liston brought to the table though.

 

...And I explined in uncontested detail how Liston in all liklihhod DID have an 84" reach, how just looking at his arms (& thicker things tend toi look shorter) & the observations of his opponents (& his massive hands, bigger than the giants today) & even his breath of chest, this is completely plausible.

And some greater distance jabbing up (at an almost 6" taller target) would only reduce the advantage, not negate it-this is basic physics, move your arm on a plane up ~ 6". And it would not apply at all for body shots.

 

People haven't past Wlad's guard cause they suck. Hayes performance was disgraceful,
lets be honest the Povetkin fight was unwatchable, and Wlad should have been warned about the clinching. I myself overrate Wlads footwork, he wasn't Ali, and he couldn't feint
like Young or Tyson. The hook/jab hybrid Wlad used in the Povetkin fight was awesome.
That could certainly trouble many a fighter. Wlad hasn't been forced out of his comfort
zone in years. Wlad does not have a glass jaw, its not iron but definitely not glass.
His mental fortitude is weak imo, he folds mentally when pressured. Tyson even
said the one gut hed be intimidated by would be Liston. It took Wlad 12 rounds
to finish Eddie Chambers! (awesome knockout btw). THis is fantasy but I think
Manny would not be crazy about Wlad exchanging, slim to no agression for Wlad
is his doom.
I actually think young agressive Wlad has a better chance to surprise Liston with his
speed and power.

 

What would apply is that a jab traveling a longer distance from a slower fighter leaves more opportunities for the faster, more mobile fighter to capitalize on (provided he's got the range to do so). We saw that in the Ali fight when a still-developing Ali found the answer to Sonny's attack by jabbing defensively to frustrate Liston before opening up. Wlad's mastered that.

I see a clear enough speed and mobility difference between the two that it's tough for me to think Wlad's going to be there on the receiving end when Sonny busts that jab out. I think Wlad can play the angles to not give Sonny a chance to reset, and that disruption will ultimately give him the advantage on the outside. Playing that game will lead to a frustrating night's work for Liston, especially since those won't be lighter punches coming back at him imo.

I also think it plays into Wlad's hands that Liston had a tendency to drop his left after the jab (likely because he was so used to that reach advantage preventing countering opportunities), and Wlad's right hand is one of the most effective the division's ever seen.

Just my two cents though. To be fair, as McGrain observed, I may be selling Liston short and I'm probably more bearish on him than most here. If someone rates Liston's mobility or speed better than I do, I could see how they'd come to a different conclusion. :good

 

The Ali vs Liston fight is murky area. Liston went down disturbingly easy against Clay and its so often overlooked because of our love for Cassius.

Everyone's deserved love for Ali was why in my opinion he is over rated.

I am not sold on Liston defeating Wlado.

 

Good analysis Rock!

Though I recall an observation about Sonny doing something with the jab that WAS effective against Ali until he dropped it...Unfortunately my memory is hazy about what it was.

May think of Liston as when he fought Ali. As pointed out here he was not fast but not slow earlier. Of course Wlad might win, but without the tying up favoritism (allowing cheating), I do not see it the most likely outcome.

 

I consider this a complete fallacy.

And, I'd start with a couple posts which were commenting on the US scene and addressing the US perspective regarding the lack of a substantive number of quality athletes in the sport for quite a long time.

[And the misconception that comes from that and from those (non-Americans) with an unfamiliarity with the US sport scene results in some saying something like this "there has always been other sports".

The answer to that is one of participation rates and the exponential growth of both of those sports as they are the only path allowing a way to combine or use one's athletic talent to obtain - potentially - a college education. This means everything to the parents of young aspiring athletes who can't afford to pay for their kids to get into or attend college. Culturally, the complete domination and explosive growth and popularity has meant that all youngsters aspire to make it in these sports (whether black or white, or whatever). When every kid (even the kids that will never be big enough or tall enough to go very far or far at all) is focusing their entire youth upon playing these sports then the competition is immense and the result is a better and better talent pool and extremely high participation rates. Boxing in the US has neither. US athletes aren't worse than before there simply hasn't been any participation in the sport and decent talent is few and far between in boxing as a result.

The more that are involved the better it gets. Whether an European or non-American believes their boxing would be better if not for World Football (soccer) is irrelevant. American athletes KNOW that there are few decent athletes (and almost none that could be considered great or extraordinary) in US boxing. But, there are five times as many great athletes in our other sports than decades ago.

There is no real mystery here in the US.]

And in a discussion of BHOP's continued presence at the top of the LHW division:

[Post from another to me]
"And that's exactly why he won't fight Ward and lost decisively to Dawson. I agree completely that the talent pool in boxing in America has been a joke for decades. All the top athletes are playing football or basketball."


[What has helped Bernard (and I don't mean this as a knock) is that the sport has been so completely out of favor in the US that there are no great athletes pursuing the sport. Consequently, he is still competitive and a champ. But, this is really a reflection of the lack of talent in boxing overall. If a talented 28-30 year "Bernard Hopkins" or "RJJ" or "James Toney" or "Gerald Mcclellan", etc., etc. were participating then 49 year Bernard Hopkins would be forced into retirement. In the US we know that no one has been pursuing the sport for a long time. It is evident in the boxing talent pool (the lack thereof). No professional athletes in other US sports looks at our pro boxers/fighters (except for perhaps Floyd and if you really follow boxing Ward) with respect or considers them extraordinary athletes. Ask any top US athletes about our heavyweights and they'll laugh and say they are garbage. No exceptions. They are third rate athletes that couldn't compete against real decent ones. This seems to be the point so many on ESB (non-Americans) don't grasp or understand. If every sport in the US has progressed with a deep talent pool with participation rates that has grown incredibly from the '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s, '00s, '10s, etc. and one has digressed and then we note that no one is entering that sport - and the participation rate is so low as to be negligible - then the explanation is obvious.]


While I'll leave it to Europeans (in particular) to talk about how dynamic and competitive boxing is in their countries today (or not), there is no arguing that the US heavyweights that have faced Wladimir over the ten years you believe he's improved are pathetic and dire.

Unless Wladimir has some hidden big men sparring partners pushing him to improve that have chosen to remain out of the sport then he isn't getting better really. In fact, there couldn't be a worse environment for his progress than the current one.

Again, we see it in our other major sports. We have hundreds of big men, every bit as fit as Wladimir, with better coordination, better foot and hand speed, better reflexes, tough as nails, and in incredible depth in our two big men sports (and I reiterate .. the participation rate has only gone up decade after decade while boxing has fallen decade after decade) and as a consequence the competition is severe and the quality high. Everyone is pushed to be better to have a job.

If you only compete against largely out of shape, C class athletes, and the apex is Wladimir then how does he actually fix his mistakes and weaknesses when there is no one that can ever exploit them? I believe that if he were faced with a quick handed, quick footed, powerful big man with speed, you'd see him getting cracked, you'd see him pull straight back with his hands out and his chin up and you'd see him panic and have the same kind of difficulties from ten years ago.

In fact, the only change in his so-called improvement is he tries to hold. I really don't think that most great trainers throughout history would feel compelled to offer great accolades to this one "new tool" in his arsenal.

OTOH, at his age, if you feel he's even more powerful, or something like that, well, perhaps. But, to claim some obvious improvement based upon ten years of dominating a sport bereft of even marginal talent is unconvincing.