The Gods of War

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Stonehands89, Dec 16, 2009.


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  1. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Stoney ,just reread your wonderful Gods Of War,and your description of Harry Greb. Greb can never be duplicated or equaled in his ability and
    amazing toughness and endurance. Never. My dad who saw Greb batter Gene Tunney at MSG,always would tell me from a pup up, how much blood was shed by Tunney that night. He always repeated to me that Harry Greb was the greatest fighter he saw. He also shared something with the Pittsburgh Windmill, for my dad also lost an eye in an accident about the same time Harry Greb died in 1926.
    I have often wondered how much courage Harry Greb had, entering the ring
    blind in one eye, KNOWING that one blow to his remaining orbit, could render him a sightless opponent to his usually larger opponents. What
    darn courage Greb needed before every fight in his last few years.!
    You do him justice S...:good
     
    burt bienstock, Dec 6, 2011
    burt bienstock, Dec 6, 2011
    #586
  2. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    With apologies to the lucky lady, that's as good a compliment as any writer can expect.
     
    Stonehands89, Dec 6, 2011
    Stonehands89, Dec 6, 2011
    #587
  3. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    If it's any consolation, Burley would be the one most likely to lose his place. I'm a sentimentalist with a justice-streak and, well, that may have had something to do with his scores. I did the scoring blind and was very suprised to see him bump out Ali and Ross, but I remember thinking how nice and happy he looked at #10.
     
    Stonehands89, Dec 6, 2011
    Stonehands89, Dec 6, 2011
    #588
  4. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Greb's place at the top is secure in my life. Any time I see him placed anywhere less in these things I have to go take a walk and cool down.
     
    Stonehands89, Dec 6, 2011
    Stonehands89, Dec 6, 2011
    #589
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    A couple of questions Stonie.

    Langford beat a below par Joe Gans at seventeen (I think) and later knocked out Harry Wills, one of the greatest HW's in history. Do you think Greb has two wins directly comparable to these?

    Secondly, how many Gods of War do you think there could conceivably be? I know there are ten for the purposes of the article, but I know you could unquestionably write up a number 11 without embarrassing the other men on the list..how deep do you think that moniker could run, at a guess? Speculatively.

    And a third one, because I just thought of it, who would the eleventh God of War be?
     
    McGrain, Dec 6, 2011
    McGrain, Dec 6, 2011
    #590
  6. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Was it you or someone else who was all over me in this thread for leaving Langford out? You remember that all candidates had to reach their prime after 1920. I think that Langford, Gans, Fitzsimmons, and many others from that era would have higher scores right off the bat based on intangibles.

    Langford may well have been the greater fighter if you include all those fighters beginning with say the Marquess of Queensberry rules, but I would still probably go with Greb. One of the reasons I do has less to do with their comparative greatness than with the plain fact that I believe that Langford was a tanker who would have agreements of exchange with his great black rivals. I'm not judging him or them -I think it may have been necessary to eat. The problem is that I don't know how much of his record can be trusted.

    That screws up the study's reliability.

    As to your question: probably not in a direct comparison. But when comparing those two Langford wins to Greb's defeats almost one after the other of undefeated bigger men in Gibbons and Tunney and then consider his proven superiority to Loughran, and his defeats of Walker, Slattery, and Rosenbloom when the whole right field of his vision was either swimming or black, it gives us pause.

    A few accounts I've seen had Greb ahead of Flowers in his last fight. Greb himself was quoted as saying "well, that was one fight I won if any." There is an argument that Greb really did or really should have reclaimed the middleweight throne before retiring. Imagine that!

    I actually see it going more in the opposite direction -it was a stretch for me to include 10 when it came to such a weighty title- "gods of war." Ten. I'm sticking to that.

    I had several alternative charts for 11-25 and never settled on any of them. I think it was either Ross or Ali... and I think I'd lean toward Ross due to my well-documented prejudice against the big lumbering lugs who generally can't fight. See? I can't help it!
     
    Stonehands89, Dec 6, 2011
    Stonehands89, Dec 6, 2011
    #591
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It gives me pause in the sense that it makes us think Greb is a legitimate contender for that #1 spot - but your language was strong - so was my riposte was definite. My own answer would be none, Langford has the better "best" wins of the two - and I'd just point out to you that Greb has very little to teach Langford about blind-fighting...

    ...because he knocked this guy the **** out with considerably less use of sight than Greb had...one perfectly working eye would have been luxury to Sam at this point.


    Fair enough chum.

    I would just point that if your list allowed pre 1920's fighter, it might include Barbados Joe Walcott and Joe Gans. Greb might be a God of War, but Langford lays them low.


    I like Ross or Ali for that spot very much, though if I did a list it would include Fitz, Gans and Sam, so you might find Duran or somebody at 11 on my own list.


    Based upon what little we know, would you take Greb to beat Langford over 15?
     
    McGrain, Dec 6, 2011
    McGrain, Dec 6, 2011
    #592
  8. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    No doubt about it.

    Tiger was landed 20 shots to the head and all it did was make Sam laugh and Kid Norfolk ended up laid out under the ropes.

    Sam and Harry brought much different things to the table though -and Sam was considerably stronger than Greb -more of a LHW than Greb ever was. Sam was a banger though -that makes it easier to fight old and to fight blind.

    Those three would be in there without any doubt. I'd have to deeply consider guys like Kid McCoy, George Dixon, the Nonpareil Jack Dempsey, and even Jack McAuliffe.

    Nah.
     
    Stonehands89, Dec 6, 2011
    Stonehands89, Dec 6, 2011
    #593
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol: how horrifically disconcerting that must have been. Best case scenario, you are in there with a total lunatic.
     
    McGrain, Dec 6, 2011
    McGrain, Dec 6, 2011
    #594
  10. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

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    :good

    and a well deserved compliment it is!
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 6, 2011
    lufcrazy, Dec 6, 2011
    #595
  11. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Mc , may I intervene ? When asked by a reader of Ring Magazine this question, "how long would it take to for Sam Langford to catch up to Harry Greb for a kayo"? Nat Fleischer,who saw them both and raved about Sam Langford, answered, " Langford and no one else would catch up to Greb and ko him " ! For what it's worth. We are assuming that both Langford and Greb would be of near similar weight. Maybe Fleischer remembered of the beating Harry Greb gave Jack Dillon, who was of similar stature and ability
    to Langford. Jack Dillon at his best was called the "white Sam Langford" as
    a 160-70 pound wrecking machine who was feared by anyone of his time.
    And yet rubber ball Greb did a number on him... What a matchup that would have been in 1910-15, between the two "Giant -killers", Langford and Jack Dillon... Cheers...
    Jack Dillon ... Cheers...
     
    burt bienstock, Dec 6, 2011
    burt bienstock, Dec 6, 2011
    #596
  12. Pachilles

    Pachilles Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Loved the one on Burley.

    I have to hand it to you, Softhands. Those nimble, gentle fingers of yours were made for writing.
     
    Pachilles, Dec 6, 2011
    Pachilles, Dec 6, 2011
    #597
  13. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    ...They are nimble and gentle when writing and seducing your girlfriend. But oh how solid they'll get when your chattering mouth is within reach.

    Kidding. Thanks for the compliment.
     
    Stonehands89, Dec 6, 2011
    Stonehands89, Dec 6, 2011
    #598
  14. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I'm very happy to announce that my book:

    This content is protected


    -is now available. Included in it are the essays -perfected versions- that were introduced in this thread, counting down the Top-Ten Greatest Fighters since 1920 ("The Gods of War"). The appendix presents the top 30 in chart form with scores.


    Official announcement here:
    http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/18467-ladies-and-gentlemen-qthe-gods-of-warq

    It's available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble.com, but if you would like a
    This content is protected
    , and you have a paypal account, please contact me at
    This content is protected
    . It's $25 plus shipping if you are outside of the continental US. If you are inside the continental US, I eat the shipping costs.

    If you go that route and email me, let me know your address and I will let you know the shipping costs and send you an invoice via Paypal. You hit a button, and I get the book in the mail, usually the next day.

    Also, it looks pretty likely that I'll be buying a table at the IBHOF Hall of Fame Weekend on 7 June to sell signed copies of the book. So if you plan on going to Canastota, NY, please say hello.
     
    Stonehands89, May 4, 2014
    Stonehands89, May 4, 2014
    #599
  15. dpw417

    dpw417 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Just ordered mine from Amazon...Been looking forward to this for quite awhile. Kinda sorry I went that way though...Would have liked an inscribed copy :(
    But hey...this is one awesome book...Great job Stonehands!!!
     
    dpw417, May 4, 2014
    dpw417, May 4, 2014
    #600
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