Prime Sonny Liston vs Prime wladimir klitschko

LOL, are we talking about the same guy ? The guy who packed it in not once but twice against a light punching greener than grass Clay ?

Let me spell it out for you.......the ONLY time Liston met a quality full sized modern talented Heavyweight he QUIT....TWICE.

Now WK can be beat by a very agressive fighter who comes right at him and makes him panic.............but your boy Sonny aint that guy , he never came at his opponents like they stole his lunch.....and Patterson came to him....

For all his faults, WK has never ever quit and has gotten up evry single time and wanted to continue even when he could not.

Wk will win the battle of the jab, reach or not, his is much faster of hand and foot, I bet my bottom dollar that he significantly stronger than Liston too .

Liston is easily the most over rated fighter on the classic forum.

 

Liston would give a lot better competition than many Wlad's opponet. I think Liston has puncher chance to knock Wlad out. Liston knocks Wlad out inside 4 rounds or Wlad takes him out in the later rounds. Still 70/30 favor for Wlad, hard to compare because Liston fought 50 years ago.

 

And one more point ...

One can or might say "well, there are certain things that Wladimir doesn't have to or need to improve upon because of his size advantage" and I think that may well be applicable to someone like .. Valuev at 7'. It is unlikely that he would ever face an opponent with equivalent size in his career.

But, at 6'6" and 240 and fit, Wladimir is merely in the range of the top category .. he isn't the biggest, fastest, most coordinated big man relative to what exists in the US. Far from it. He could actually have had to face top notch big men these past ten years in which he had no size or athletic advantage. It isn't like for Valuev. There are lots of guys with Wlad's size around - just none in the US decided to pursue boxing in their youth. It simply didn't happen. That's an anomaly particular to this time and place. It happened to be during his era. Whether it is a one off or two remains to be seen. So far, the same forces - education and cultural popularity - continue to leave the smallest number and only third rate big men looking to boxing.

So, if he's improved upon his ability to fight smaller, slower, out of shape, C class athletes then it is what it is.

Personally, I don't see a single quality athlete on his entire resume. I see some that were not bad but no longer prime. I see some that were decent but not really at heavyweight. And, I see a long collection of unimpressive stiffs. Even the Europeans on the list were dismal. Even the fighters he lost to ten years ago weren't any good. If you think Sam Peter can hold a candle to high level quality athletes you need to get out of the house. I think Wladimir is the biggest and most fit (a dominating combination) heavyweight in an era reminiscent of a war environment when ALL of the able bodied men were off fighting and only a few near sighted, one-armed cripples were left to entertain the people at home. How could he not look good by comparison these past ten years? But, is he really better? The only time he met an able opponent (though not a super heavyweight) in recent years he looked very unimpressive. Whether one accepts the "toe" argument of David Haye or not, Wlad landed almost nothing in that fight. As bad as the ESB consensus is on Haye's performance I think Wlad's was equivalently bad - after all - he was the bigger man, and a legit super heavyweight. He didn't win as much as he "didn't lose". That's as far as it goes.

Anyway, not the topic I know. The Liston/Klitschko comparative is difficult. Gonna rewatch Liston from the late 50s when I find a spare moment - haven't had the time in so very long. Always hard to compare greats across eras.

 

You play football, you play basketball, you don't play boxing.

These athletes that go into other sports just don't have it mentally to go into boxing.

If you really wanted to box, then you would go box.

 

You don'y have much of a case when you start your arguement making excuses for a loss.

Say Fury gassed out against Chisora and lost , would he get a pass for being just a 15 fight novice with no amateur backround?
No he wouldn't and he didn't lose , he was able to hang in there for 12 and get the win.

Wlad was an olympic gold medaist, 24 fight professional athlete when he lost to Purrity.

Point to me a boxing olympian who could not fight 12 rounds with zero pro fight , let alone 24 pro fights.
Loma a fellow Ukranian in only his second pro fight did 12 hard rounds , coming on stronger in the later rounds.
I wouldn't try convince anybody that a professional olympian should be excused for not being able to fight the mandated 12 rounds.

Wlad lost because he has poor punch resistance and terrible stamina. Brewster exposed his bad stamina again in his prime and his whole method of fighting revolves around setting a midi tempo pace so he doesn't gas out again.
That is a weakness. Just because it hasn't happened does not mean its not there. He has the perfect partners to mask it and he jumps on everybodys back to make sure they wear down before he does.

One body shot from Liston and Wlad will want out. Liston would mug and terroize Wlad if he tried to hug him out.

Wlad Klitschko- Unbeaten in fantasty h2h matchups.
Gets knocked out by journeymen in reality h2h match ups.

 

Marty Marshall & Leotis Martin are journeymen.

 

Think I'd go with Liston by complete obliteration. A great of the ring V someone that's being talked about as a great but is actually nowhere near it

If someone had suggested this matchup 10 years ago everyone would have laughed their heads off. Vlad hasn't improved much in the last 10 years, in reality there's been very little competition to highlight his faults

 

Liston has the longer reach, the better jab and would have destroyed him .. Wlad has built a reign that I can only compare to Virgil Hill's ... Longevity based on safety first style and limited opposition .. the way he fought so cautiously against blown up Haye is astonishing to me .. Wlad still has no chin and busts up easily when hit .. he would not survive Liston.

 

That's the response of a non-athlete.

Doesn't carry any water .. just proves you've never been a quality athlete yourself.

Great athletes have the option of doing whatever they desire because they ARE great athletes. And, in the US, that is where our badasses are.


It is why these two sports have become immense businesses at the collegiate level. The youth of America aren't all fighting to get there because they are "mentally fragile and fearful of that tough sport of boxing".


Any American athlete would straight out laugh at such nonsense. Men treat athletics or sports with the same seriousness because it represents a livelihood. The commitment is extreme no matter whether it is professional baseball, football, basketball, or boxing. The difference is that none are pursuing boxing in the US. The opportunity (for an education) and path to a good life is through football and basketball.

There are many metrics (athlete participation rates, business sponsorship, tv/cable, apparel sales, advertising fees, gambling, etc.) from which to choose but just looking at attendance levels might be useful at showing what collegiate basketball and football are like in the US compared to professional boxing. This is even a little dated but in 2005, NCAA Men's basketball drew 30,000,000 while NCAA football drew 44,000,000. The popularity has only increased considerably in the past 8 years in these sports. Professional boxing? Professional boxing drew just under 2,000,000. It was actually less popular than professional tennis in America. Minor league hockey and professional rodeo drew three times as many as professional boxing. With the right push, lacrosse could become competitive in the US with professional boxing - that's how out of favor the sport has become. US youth have effectively abandoned the sport even as the population has gone over 300 million.


But, to state there is some imaginary difference may be received well by an ignorant audience but is absurd without exception.

Are you saying - with our population - we don't have guys with the mentality to be boxers?

lol


Over here these "sports" aren't so disrespected and for good reason. It encompasses the biggest, strongest, most fit, and competitive men on the planet.

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basketball - which is viewed pretty derisively by non-Americans - is an incredibly physical game on the inside with 7 footers banging around. If you've never played at professional or university level you wouldn't easily know. Little 6'6" guys are pushed around like young teenagers by the centers in pro basketball. Smaller than 6'6"? You'll be bounced out of the middle like you're a small child. Below 6'6" you stay on the outside because you are a little guy. Six footer? You'll be living away from the basket, because moving into the middle brings the probability of getting inadvertently hurt.


"These athletes that go into other sports

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LOL - I think you actually believe that too.

 

Just because someone is a great athlete doesn't mean they would be good at boxing. Why would you even suggest that?

Ditto with the "Centers" argument. Dennis Rodman is arguably the best rebounder of all-time and he is about the same size as Wlad.

Let's choose an athlete, say Lebron James. He is arguably one of the most athletic in the world.

He's got great size (6'8).
Naturally strong.
Great coordination.
Long arms (reach).
Very fast, quick, explosive.

What does all this mean? Would he be the HW Champ of the World if he decided to pursue boxing? Maybe. I doubt it though.

How would his chin hold up?
Would he be able to develop his boxing ability to an elite level?
Would he be able to generate enough power to drop elite tier fighters?
How would he deal with body shots?

 

I would suggest that because I've seen a multitude of athletes that could have easily played any sport they desired. I'm not Lebron James but I pitched at USC. Expected to go pro until arm troubles from pitching since I was eight finally provided some real setbacks at the wrong time. Growing up I could do all sports great (relative to my age group). Not well, much better than that. I was one of the best distance runners in California, too. In the end, a young athlete must choose. High school is usually the last level (sometimes university - but rarely) when you play multiple sports. I know lots of talented guys who played basketball, football, and baseball (and track too). At university, maybe two sports (but it was not common). When no one chooses boxing then you have a diminishing of the sport and an unrepresentative talent pool.

When a sport like boxing has zero talent at heavyweight coming out of the US with a population of 300 million there is an explanation. When the number of athletes participating in the other sports has been growing for decades while boxing has been declining there is an explanation (as I outlined in the posts you're referencing). When the quality of performance in the other sports is increasing and in greater depth while boxing is diminishing the relationship is intuitive and obvious. Only if there were decay in the other sports would any opposing proposition or indictment have any credibility.

It doesn't require that EVERY great athlete becomes a great boxer. In a population of 300+ million, I can't imagine how you could question that there would be an abundance of talented athletes that would be great boxers because it is a physical endeavor first and foremost and the mental qualities needed are no different than the mental fortitude all great athletes exercise in our sports. You think a defensive end doesn't know physical combat? He attacks another giant man (a few actually) every thirty seconds or so. The overall contest lasts for a little over 3 hours. Are you unfamiliar with the quality of our athletes? You question or have another explanation that out of the largest most talented big men in our country that the best we can put in the ring is Tony Thompson or Chris Arreola ? Really now?

You think all of our athletes are either unimpressive or unfit? Go visit an NFL or top university program and see for yourself.

re:
"Ditto with the "Centers" argument. Dennis Rodman is arguably the best rebounder of all-time and he is about the same size as Wlad."

Actually the best rebounder ever is Bill Russell. He was 6'10" and his career average is well about Rodman's. Wilt was also a better rebounder at 7'1". Rodman didn't score so he focused upon one thing. And, a Rodman is more of an exception than the norm, don't you know? But, at least, it appears you don't have total disdain for basketball like some.

Here's the top twenty in total rebounds for the current NBA yr:

Jordan 6'11" 265
Drummond 6'10" 270
Love 6'10" 243
Howard 6'11" 265
Cousins 6'11" 270
Noah 6'11" 232
Aldridge 6'11" 240
Jefferson 6'10" 289
Randolph 6'9" 260
Davis 6'10" 220
Bogut 7'0" 260
Duncan 6'11" 250
Varejao 6'11" 267
Gasol 7'1" 265
Gortat 6'11" 240
Griffin 6'10" 251
Lee 6'9" 240
Monroe 6'11" 250
Thompson 6'9" 238
Hickson 6'9" 242

The smallest on this list is 6'9".


You'll hardly see an effective small rebounder who doesn't have big bodies (no matter how mediocre) at the center and power forward position to free space and block others to enable a good average (so whether it was Cartwright or Longley and Grant - there were others to make Rodman's average possible). My point regarding size was to show where the big athletes are. A 6'6" man cannot compete against the biggest in the NBA without larger teammates - because a 6'6" center will not survive today. On the whole, Wlad - if he had the athletic talent to compete in basketball - and he obviously does not exhibit the foot speed either back in his early years or as currently constituted - he would be a small wing or shooting guard. He would play on the outside because he is too small.


re:

I don't need to really say anything after that from you about Lebron. You've already said it.

So, you wonder if Lebron who has proven to be the quickest 6'8" man in basketball with the some of the best hand and foot speed imaginable with amazing vision (passes like some the best point guards in NBA history) and elite coordination and one of the very few guys at 6'8" with the strength and hops to guard the biggest men on the court could master boxing or any sport?

Come on now. You have some misconception about boxing. The most important thing is not "do you have the heart" it is "do you have the talent and physical attributes" first and foremost. If all it took was desire than anybody could be anything in life. Yes, if Lebron who works out every single day of his life in a sport since childhood and on to a professional career had a motivation to be a boxer (because it offered an education and a path forward in his youth) there is no doubt that he could learn to focus his extraordinary athletic talent into boxing and excel. No doubt.

But, certainly no one would ever claim that every great basketball player would be a great boxer. And I haven't. That is because there are basketball players built for that game and less so or not at all for boxing. The same for professional football players. There are a bunch of lineman that are far too heavy and relatively immobile in their ability to use their arms to really punch or lacking in the right aerobic categories to compete. The point is that there are hundreds that are in the two sports that are easily in Wlad's dimensions with great athleticism and talent.

Why?

You wonder if Lebron James could learn to generate enough power to drop the heavyweights you watch in professional boxing today?

Really?

 

I know you take your self seriously, so I will as well,,,, Wlad for his size is the best boxer in the world for the last decade, correct ???

Repeat after me, as Wlad did not LOSE to Haye , Wlad WON against Haye.

There are plenty of guys in the US that are as big and skilled as Wlad.

They simply didn't like getting punched in the head because its hard to get hit in the head and go into work the next day.

You see how that works?????

"These aren't the droids your looking for"

 

Sorry, you'll have to work harder with your English. That wasn't exactly cogent. Reread my posts as your assignment to help with your deficiencies. If you need help just ask.

 

Idiot.

Today nobody would be scared of Liston.....if he would run his mouth he would get clipped by a 140 pound blood or crip....Fact....this aint the 50or 60 's when Liston wrestled while drunk with some cops......today you get whacked for nothing , see Camacho or Vernon Forrest