Prime Sonny Liston vs Prime wladimir klitschko

You don't have an appreciation for boxing. You can't just have talent and be tall to be good at boxing.

Boxing has been along for roughly 130 years and the tallest HW Champ before the Klitschkos was 6'6. There are plenty of reasons athletic, tall guys aren't HW Champs.

Most professional boxers will tell you that you need the heart/mentality/desire/work ethic to be top tier.

 

We got off topic here but I'll throw my 2 cents in anyway. A couple of years ago I had the pleasure of meeting Ed "To Tall' Jones while on vacation in the Bahamas. Over a couple of drinks I asked him about his foray into boxing and what he thought about it. Too Tall said it was one of the hardest things he ever tried though the training made him a better football player as it sharpened his reflexes and hand speed on the playing field ( He was also surprised that I remembered with detail his 1st fight against Jacqui Meneses). Now if anyone fit the mold as a big tall strong athlete who could succeed in Boxing from another sport, Too tall was certainly one....So did he succeed? Nope. It's very difficult to go from being able to tackle, push, wrestle, sprint, kick etc.. to only being able to punch with your hands all taped up while wearing gloves and trunks and not much else. Wilt Chamberlain was quick to realize this before taking on Ali. There's a boatload of money to be had if someone could do it but shooting baskets, no matter how tough and physical it may be beats getting repeatedly punched in the face and possibly KTFO in front of a live audience and millions of pay per view fans. It takes a different mindset above and beyond athletic ability. Off to bed now..Goodnight

 

Wlad had great ring IQ when he decided to roll around on the ground like he was on fire instead of holding against Corrie Sanders.

It would be an awkward fight, Wlad would make it dirty and weird, as he does.
Wlad is a smart fighter today because he was so reckless earlier in his career, but unfortunately for us, smart fighter in this case means dreadful to watch and a constant rule breaker.

I can't call it accurately between these two, but my heart wants Liston because Liston was a scientific fighter with massive power.

 

And of course Liston showed wonderful ring IQ when he rolled around on the floor from a SLAP from Ali?:roll::roll:

Plus you REALLY want to talk about alleged DIRTY fighters in thread concerning Liston?

I'd go back to the drawing board if I were you.

 

Wlad would be scared and would rely on his management team, political connections and the entire nation of Germany to back him in a outside of the USA fight against Liston.

Wlad would still get KO'd, he has no answer and not enough speed against Liston, a fighter that can knock down fighters with both hands and can take hard punches.

 

What you have got is the biggest " dog " in Heavyweight history.

Quit on his stool to surrender his title, then quit from a slap in his chance to regain it.

Surprise, surprise he is winning the poll against a NON YANK.

 

I am a "NON YANK" and I still back a competitive Liston to beat current Wladimir.

An old late 30's Liston quit on his stool, then trained hard and went down to a lean 208 lbs for the rematch before Ali pulled out due to injury, then the rematch was on again at a later date and Liston put back on weight and was drinking wine again, leading up to that match where he took a dive against Ali.

But we could trade tic for tat and say how Wlad got slaughtered against journeymen but that would be misrepresenting how good a fighter Wlad is since that.

 

atsch

Yeah, like everyone was peace and love in the 1950s and '60s.
Lots of people act the fool and DON'T get shot dead. Others get whacked for nothing, as you say. There you have it. Proves nothing.

 

Very good post :good

I agree, people complain that Eastern Euros dominate the HW dvision, yes they due but theres also a lack of very good or great US heavyweights. Since the retiring of Lewis and the emergence of the Klitskco era, there hasnt been a single US fighter who is worthy of being mentioned in the same category as a Tyson, Ali, Louis etc, or even mentioned next to a Michael Moorer

Since Lewis era, the best american fighter to date has probably been Chris Byrd (who i dont think is particularly that good anyway)

 

Wlad is easily the most unwatchable HW though. He has hurt the sport and
helped it. Has he ever had a title fight on PPV? heres the kicker, once Wlad retires
the HW scene will be unwatchable, as unwatchable as Wlad fights are. I feel like
there will never be another great American HW. O wait, we Have Arreola Stiverne 2,
and then theres Deontay Wilder. Haha feeling cynical today.

 

I've heard these same type of anecdotes before and along the same line the next one from someone else will be to note the performance or lack thereof of Mark Gastineau or Highsmith or maybe Powell. No offense intended - but these kinds of anecdotes (including Wilt's) is irrelevant to the points I made in my posts if you have read them. No one would suggest that we can pull - even the greatest - athletes out of one sport and drop them into another and expect them to excel at the highest level. That would be akin to saying that there is no benefit to training for a sport and specifically that Klitschko (as the long-reigning champ) is completely inept and the equivalent of a tough-man champion.

The points I make are about the affect and impact upon US boxing of low participation rates due to the educational opportunity and cultural rise of our other sports. These effects have long duration just as it takes a long time for a youth to train to become a champion, or All-Star, or MVP.

Your other point about boxers generally is addressed below.

Of course I do. I've been to two dozen live boxing matches. And, I've broken my left twice hitting guys in the head.

So .............. you've lost the plot or given up?


It would seem that one primary reason that Wlad is champ in today's heavyweight division is because he is more fit, with the best SIZE, with adequate talent.

The division has been dominated for the past fourteen or fifteen years by super heavyweights (both in height and weight). What the prior 115 years provided is not particularly relevant to anything I've commented upon. When you have a larger population, when you have broader economic security and higher universal standards of living, you end up having a greater number of larger young athletes than before. It is not surprising or unpredictable that the average height and weight of the athletes participating have increased on average or relative to prior generations just as your grandparents are generally smaller than your parents and your parents smaller than you.

Sure. Just as there are plenty of reasons athletic, short guys aren't all HW Champs either. Not all athletes - even great ones - translate into great fighters. I have not suggested that they do. If that is the primary point you have derived from my post(s) then I can only request you reread it.

This is a meaningless statement in this context: EVERY professional athlete in EVERY sport will make a very similar assessment of what is necessary for success. It would be an insult to the endeavor and their commitment over time to suggest otherwise. In fact, EVERY meaningful activity in life across the board receives the same kind of statement whether it be from a successful businessman, professional (i.e., doctor, accountant, lawyer, engineer, etc.), entertainer, musician, etc., etc.

The distinction as it applies to boxers may be asserted and more well received by a (sympathetic) audience but it is no more evident than anywhere else. [Some might even question the premise in its entirety if one merely used US heavyweights as the test case - considering the "condition" and fitness of many of the current participants. This alone should support the contention that there is a reason why there really are no "TOP TIER" US heavyweights (except if you redesignate "mediocre tier" - as TOP tier).]

I do not accept or believe the fallacy that boxers are "different" than other athletes. When a professional athlete participates, practices, and trains since youth, rising every morning, taking every opportunity to learn and gain experience, making sure they do all they can to improve themselves, their health, their condition, their fitness, then this same approach and level of commitment will translate into a better athlete.

I do not accept or believe that there is some imagined "special" boxer's heart or work ethic that is distinct from what all other athletes in all other activities can bring to the table.

[This is especially true if one is familiar with the very high health impact attributed to life in the NFL now and the various lawsuits and class-action activities that are occurring as it becomes clear that the severe repetitive impact in this sport with elite athletic talent is resulting in shortened lives and significant later impairment (and these are the "uninjured" athletes).]

In a division with no upper end and no size limitation (i.e., heavyweight), it would surely be advantageous - hypothetically - to be the most talented, the most fit, AND the largest especially if not every opponent will have all of those attributes.

But, again, if you read and understood what I've said it should be clear that the focus is upon large sized athletes BECAUSE that is what has been dominating the division for a good while now and BECAUSE equivalently sized athletes with talent and fitness DO exist in the US today. If the suggestion is that the US has neither talented (in boxing terms) athletes or large sized athletes with "a fighter's heart" then nothing could be more ridiculous and wrong.

There may be smaller sized athletes that could dethrone Wlad. They have certainly existed in the past. But, if you could have an opponent made to order for this purpose wouldn't it be even more sensible to take the most talented large sized athlete with power, speed, and fitness?

The counter-factual question to you would be this: What would Wlad's level of success be if he was 6'2". Would he be just as successful in today's era. Would he be just as successful head-to-head historically?

Thank you.

 

Liston did quit his 2 fights against Ali, but a competitive Liston is championship winning material and is just too much for a fighter like Wladimir.

He beat the best out there except for Ali.

 

What is your take on the second bout sir? Feel bad for Jersey Joeatsch