Who is the biggest person Rocky Marciano fought?

I agree.

 

hold his ground yes. Maybe beat some of them. But he still wouldn't have the added advantage of being 6'1", 213 lbs that a 1951 Louis would have been. Probably beats Povetkin and maybe Berbick as well. Lyle and Mercer might pose problems.

 

Do you feel Mercer and Lyle are a level above 51 Louis, Povetkin, and Berbick? I don't really see it. I would favor the Rock over all four men. Of course each would pose unique problems but not enough for me to give them the edge.

 

Not a matter of weather or not they are a level above. It's stylistic and physical problems that I see them posing for the Rock. Louis losing to Rocky and how those guys match up to Louis, Berbick or Povetkin is kind of irrelevant.

 

If 51 Louis is on the level of a Mercer or Lyle. Than Marciano should be able to beat them. They are stylistically simliar aggressive jabbers and physically the same size.

 

I don't see that. This is developing into a circular logic type of conversation. Could Rocky beat them? Perhaps. But I don't see it happening just because he beat Louis in 1951. Prime Lyle and Mercer were more durable than a 37 year old Lewis and didn't have a problem with men who "crowded" them as Louis said he did himself. Lyle was also 6'3", and his prime weight was anywhere from 215-220, making him NOT Louis's size, who wasn't traditionally 213 anyway. Mercer was 225 when he sparked Morrison and took Tommy's best punches along with those of Lennox Lewis, Bert Cooper, Evander Holyfield and a myriad of guys who could crack..

 

Can't see Mercer beating Marciano. How he's going to do that? Outwork him?

 

He might not have to. If those guys get in the ring its almost inevitably going to turn into a slug fest because I don't see either of them making a boxing match out of it. With two big punchers with good chins, lot of heart, and good power trade blow after blow at close range the bigger and ( possibly ) the more durable of the two is likely going to win.

 

-Not sure of that, Louis was only stopped by Marciano after a bad beating.

-Lyle was troubled by Kirkman and Bonavena's crowding. Mercer was beaten by Holyfield's infighting tactics, and was hurt and dropped by a short left hook.

-Louis was listed 6'2 or 6'1.5" and was a muscular 213 against Rocky. Lyle is comparable in size. Mercer was 6'1" and weighed 215 when he beat Francesco prior to Morrison. At 220-230, he started carrying a little around the waistline.

[url]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2008/0522/bog_g_mercmorr_300.jpg[/url]

-Again, we have fighters of comparable size and attributes that were roughly on the level. Marciano's win over Louis is a fair guage.

 

I just don't rate Mercer as a puncher.
I mean, I suppose 'any man over 200 pounds' can punch, but Mercer was quite unimpressive in the power department usually.
I cannot see Marciano getting stopped when Bert Cooper lasted the distance, that seems very unlikely.

 

"This doesn't prove your point at all."

Of course not. There are very few definitive historical proofs. There is only evidence. So many more contenders is strong evidence, in my judgment, of increased participation. Evidence of "an influx of talent" I think I said. I'll stick by that.

Certainly there were other factors, primary being the migration from the rural South to the big cities of the North. Boxing was centered in big cities. Top trainers or managers were not likely to discover a prospect picking cotton. This migration was on-going, but WWII and the need for wartime workers and the availability of jobs certainly speeded it up.

"it suggests some ethnic groups become more/less inclined to take up boxing in the first place."

Sure does. And what is the reason for the much lower black representation in the ratings in the 1930's? There was no way they could compete with the great white fighters like King Levinsky or Johnny Paycheck? Jobs were so plentiful during the Great Depression that they had no pressing need to get involved with a brutal sport like boxing? None of this washes. There were few black fighters because doors were closed and even within the sport opportunities were generally limited. All that began to change with Louis and within a few years black participation and representation among the top boxing echelon skyrocketed.

Just my take.

 

Again going back to my comparision:

Louis's left hook KO over Savold isn't that far removed from Lyle and Mercer's best KO wins.

 

- Mercer had 14 fights when he met Cooper and beat the **** out of him.. Well they both beat the **** out of each other. I watched that fight in 1990 on public television, and can remember it as clear as day because the broadcast was periodically interrupted with news flashes of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

- I do rate Mercer as a puncher. Perhaps not on the level of Foreman, Shavers, Tyson, etc, but the man hurt just about everyone he ever stepped in the ring with weather he finished them or not. He failed to finish the job when he was in their with either an exceptionally durable opponent or better yet, one that could avoid being hit with his right hand. The latter of the two may be a problem for Marciano

 

He was also stopped by Schmeling and floored or hurt by a myriad of other fighters while being prime. If you want to argue that he was just as durable as Mercer or Lyle while prime, then fine. But I think it fair to surmise that he lost a lot of punch resistance by the time he met Marciano.

Yet both Bonavena and Kirkman were beaten with one of them being stopped. There is also a difference between a guy who just hangs all over you and one who comes to slug it out. BTW, I couldn't find Lyle vs Kirkman on youtube. Know where I can view it? Holy also boxed against Mercer and who's style I view as being different from Rocky's anyway.

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Would you say that 213 was Louis's traditional best fight weight? I think some would beg to differ. Lyle and Mercer consistently weighed over 210 for most of their careers. Mercer weighed 240 against a prime Lennox and fought him to a near standstill.

Louis wasn't able to take Rocky's pounding for too long and nor did he have his full arsenal of offensive tools anymore to give it back. Wouldn't be the case for Mercer and Lyle had Rocky caught them on their best nights. When you take a much smaller puncher who relies on battering his opponents while outlasting them, and put him in against a two guys who more or less do the same, only are significantly bigger, the outcome doesn't always go well.

 

Who did Jeffries fight and defeat who meets this criteria?

Johnson? You could make a case for McVea, but he was a teenager, and not tall. Jeffries? Utterly past it, but unlike Louis, he had not won a fight in six years.

Dempsey? Willard? Even young he might not meet #3, but he was actually older than Louis was in 1951 and hadn't fought in three years. Firpo? Certainly falls short on #3.

Tunney?

Schmeling?

Louis? Baer to an extent. He falls short of #3 but otherwise meets the criteria.

**Bottom line. There were just not many big fellows prior to 1960 who were really talented fighters, which is why most of the champions like Dempsey and Louis actually had more trouble with smaller, sub-200 lb. men.

***As I said before, I disagree with the thrust of this thread, which seems to imply that for a pre-1960 fighter, beating some big guy over 200 or 210 is more important than beating the best guys out there.