Marciano vs Foreman... What Can The Rock Do?

I find it pretty compelling. A guy gets decked when he's good and tired it means his legs are going. Guy gets decked when he's fresh it means he can't take a shot to the face as well.. Hence the first guy has a case for a better chin..

 

Yes at heavyweight. Check out Moore knocking out embrell Davidson on you tube. Bob baker was a big dude too. Moore iced more heavyweights than a lot of career heavyweight contenders.

 

Hard to say in his early career George was so protected even in his 33-37th fight he was fighting guys with horrible records. He went the distance in fight 2 with 5"11 Everett Martin (who was getting stopped regularly at the time) and he did not look great against the 5"5 1/2 Dwight Quawi and neither of these men could punch near Marciano and neither were fast of foot, I was surprised to see George get hit with right hands by Quawi (who was not a puncher) and also past his best at 35+ years ....The older version of Foreman was a better fighter but the younger version was a force with flaws. The only near puncher that the younger version fought was Lyle and the REF could have stopped the fight in Lyle's favor a few times and Lyle went the distance with many fighters once he moved up in class as i pointed out in a previous post.

I am not sure how the younger version of George would do against a real puncher or a 2 fisted small guy. Foreman was dropped by Young with a right hand and KO'd by Ali by a right hand and KD by Lyle with right hands. Frazier only had a hook and by the time he fought Foreman Joe had seen better days, still Joe was a one-handed fighter even at his best.

 

I'd confidently state that Foreman hit appreciably harder than either Walcott or Moore.Moore himself said Foreman was the hardest hitter he had ever seen.

 

That maybe so but it dosnt change the fact that foreman punched a lot slower than both of them and was also a lot easier to hit than Walcott and Moore. Getting hit hard prevents a puncher setting up what he wants to throw back. Those big wide telegraphed punches from George and his vulnerability to over hand rights could expose many openings for Marciano to exploit.

 

The underlined is a sweeping statement.

Foreman faced Chuck Wepner in his 4th fight, Wepner had 24 fights under his belt,would beat Manuel Ramos 5 months later,and5 years later go into the 15th with Ali for the title,a year after 20 years old Foreman stopped Wepner in 3 Chuck would go 9rds with Liston.
In his 7th fight Foreman faced 36 fight Roberto Davila,in his 11th Levi Forte who had 42 fights experience.
Gregorio Peralta 90 fights and fresh off a draw with Bonavena was George's 16th opponent. I'd take Peralta to beat Lastarza who lost a close dec to Rocky
George Chuvalo, 76 fights experience behind him his 18th.
Boone Kirkman who was 22-1-0, George's 21st. MIguel Paez was George's opponent in his 32nd fight Paez had76 bouts,and had wins over Corletti x2, Lovell, and Bonavena. Foreman fought Frazier for the title in his 34th fight, he had a gimme against no 10 rated Roman next then Norton for his 36th.

Marciano in his 4th fight was in with 8 fight 183lbs Bobby Quinn.
Seventh fight with Humphrey Jackson who was having his 7th and last fight.
Sixteenth 181lbs Jimmy Evans, 25 fights.
Eighteenth ,174lbs Harry Haft.
Twenty one, 174.5lbs Ted Lowry who took him the distance and some thought beat him.

Thirty fourth Art Henri13-15-1, Henri was 184.5lbs.
Foreman was knocking out Frazier in his 34th fight.
Thirty fifth Willis Applegate 11-14 -2.
Foreman was defending his title against top 10 rated Roman in his respective fight

Rex Layne, Marciano's first rated opponent in his 36th fight.Foreman was demolishing no 1 rated Ken Norton in 2 rds.


Yeah Foreman was protected,if you believe that then Marciano was wrapped in cotton wool.atsch

 

This is crucial to assessing "what Rocky can do" against prime Foreman.

yes Frazier did not have a right hand and nobody missed George with right hands. Frazier had begun to get rocked by journeymen after the first Ali fight, his punch resistance had declined alarmingly. There was a range where Joe could not fire back since he had taken to opening up only once he had already walked up to a man rather than punch on the way in as he had done during his prime. Foreman did a wonderful job exploiting all of this but it was the right man at the right time kind of a deal. Frazier had already reached the point where his people needed to be selective with whom Joe fought in order to keep him winning.

 

I've got Lyle stopping 31 out of 51 opponents.

I've got Ali stopping 37 out of 61 opponents.

Agreed Young only stopped 11 out of 56.

But from Moore winning the Light Heavy title in Dec 52 I have him fighting 43 times at Heavy, ( unless it stated specifically they were Light Heavy fights, I've assumed they were Heavyweight fights ) stopping 22 of them.

I don't see that as a higher KO ratio than either Ali or Lyle.

 

The point is in order to a title fight Marciano had to beat a lot of curent rated fighters. Layne and I think Louis were favoured to beat Rocky and rated above him before marciano fought them. There was also Mathews and lastarza and I think savold. Five pre championship opponents. All rated.

Who was favoured to beat Foreman? I still don't know how Foreman retained such a high rating during 1972. Six fights and not one of them known outside of their own homes. Joe Murphy Goodwin was 1-14-1! Then there was some guy called "clarance" who was 3-24-1, Ted Gullick and paez were better but still over matched and unrated, Gullick had lost a third of his fights (mostly his last few fights) but still landed every punch in the book on wide open george .....then as a warm up for Frazier a real killer!!! George took on "sorry" terry Sorrell who was 4-15. That was George in 1972. I think Ali fought most of the top ten that year but Frazier took George...

Before his title challenge I think Foreman had only met chuvalo who was rated.

 

How many decent heavyweights did Lyle knock out? Bugner? Young? Quarry?

Moore knocked out #1 heavyweight contender Bob baker, I don't think Lyle ever matched anything like that. I think SHavers was lyles signature ko win, that's it. But even Ron Stander knocked SHavers out. Quarry too. ALI nearly stopped SHavers in the last round. I don't think SHavers had a rating when Lyle beat him either.

Moore knocked out some common heavyweight opponents quicker than Liston did and that was after marciano beat him...

 

The point was you said Foreman was protected and I've just proved that Foreman fought much more experienced fighters than did Rocky at the same stage of his career and was matched tougher.
Savold wasn't ranked when Marciano fought him. Gullick landed a lot on Foreman ? He had 14 kos in his 15 wins any of his punches bother George?

 

If you can name any men of any worth that Gullick knocked out I will agree George did well for Ted's blows not to bother him but since Gullick had already been knocked out by Terry Daniels before Geoge got to him I don't suppose that matters. All name fighters were going to knock Ted out because that was the level he was at, a good fighter up to a level who did not have the required resistance and world class timing to translate that punch into being effective at the next level. Gullick could land those punches on better athletes and not make the same impression. So it proved against Foreman.

Both Foreman and Marciano were fantastic fighters. Both were matched for much of the way up in order to be fully prepared for the contender scene. However foreman arrived on the championship scene without facing as many contenders as Marciano. I think this hurt George because it wound up that Ali was his first tough fight. He had not ironed out all his flaws. What if Rocky would have been a tough fight too?

 

I saw Wepner fight live many times and he was tough and had heart but was a terrible fighter, Chuck could not break an egg with his fists and he made Chuvalo look like Willie Pep

Joe Roman was horrific

Miguel Paez fought mainly as a light heavyweight he was Ko'd 2-fights before he fought Foreman by Joe Bugner in 3 rounds and Luis Pires in 7, you say he beat Bonavena that was a DQ

As far as Luis Pires he was Ko'd by Bonavena 3 or 4 times also Lovell, Roosevelt Eddie and beaten already by an older Earnie Terrel

But lets just look at Georges 36th fight

Terry Sorrel 4-15-0 he would have a final record of 6-22

Georges 35th fight
15-5-1 Ted Gullick who was just Ko'd by Terry Daniels and Shavers

Georges 34th fight = Clarence Boone 3-24-1

Georges 33rd fight=Joe Murphy Goodwin 1-14-1

Georges 31st fight=Ollie Wilson 24-40

Georges 30th fight=Leroy Caldwell 11-9-1

Georges 29th fight Vic Scott 1-2-0

Georges 26th fight Mel Turnbow 8-10
Georges 27th Fight = Stanford Harris 14-22-2
25th fight= 15-30-5 Lou Bailey

12th fight Levi Forte 19- 21-2 but Forte went the distance with the Olympic gold medal winner and Forte was KO'd 16 times and was Ko'd in 2 before and after Foreman and stopped by many during that same time frame 11 fight Jim Elder and Bjorn Rudi not to mention Floyd Patterson and Chuvalo among others but at least Forte was getting KO'd by a few names

 

Basically you proved they were both protected more than many of the other great champions on the way up.

 

Without including Savold and kid Mathews I would not call having to climb the top ten ratings by facing 3 higher rated contenders that protected.