Who is the biggest person Rocky Marciano fought?

The Quarry fight tells us more about a theortiecal Maricano match up than Foreman or Shavers. The smaller Quarry crowded Lyle, got under his arms,dug to the body and scored over the top with a two handed attack. Foreman was a big open target that walked right into Lyle's fully extended punches and Shavers for all his vaunted power lacked in every other area, especially at this stage of his career. My money would be on a Maricnao decision, though given how Quarry had Lyle in big trouble, Maricano could finish him late, especially in a 15 rounder. It wouldn't be easy of course and I think Lyle's best moments would come from his jab in the early rounds.

 

Lifting weights and adding weight would only make Marciano slower than he already was. Tua was outclassed by a big heavyweight in Lewis, after sampling a couple of rights he opted for survival.
Bonavena was comfortably outboxed by several of the 70's heavies. After Leon Frazier had about the shortest prime of any heavyweight champ .

 

Doubtful. He got himself knocked out against a declined Chuvalo by making two bad mistakes in a roll, and ran out of gas against Frazier twice. Even at his most fit, he just doesn't have the stamina, focus, or firepower to hold Maricano off for the distance.

Quarry was clowned by a washed up Machen, he isn't doing any better than Maricano did against Charles or Walcott. In fact, he probably does worse and loses to both of them.

In the 50s, Quarry would do a number on guys like Satterfield, Baker, and Valdez though.

 

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Quarry didn't just win that fight by "crowding" him on the inside. He did a fair amount of boxing and counter punching in that fight too. I will also ad that Lyle had an amateur career lasting only 14 months. In the pros he had only some 18-19 fights with only a few of them going past the fifth round to that point, while Quarry was having his best year on record. Lyle undoubtedly improved between 1973-1976. Jerry was also 6'0", 200 lbs, which isn't as wide of a gap as it would be between Marciano at 5'10", 185 and Lyle at 6'3" 215.

Incorrect. If you're going to site performances and post youtube links, at least try and describe what's actually going on. Foreman didn't just "walk" into those two knockdowns. They were in the middle of exchanges at close range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SzlHZH8A0M

In 1975 Shavers was nearing the prime stage of his career and despite his shortcomings was a very dangerous guy to trade with.

A reasonable prediction. Though I wouldn't get too carried away with using the Quarry fight as a barometer.

 

on Ron Lyle--

Because he's getting such a big build-up here (as do most second-tier heavies from the 1970's), I have been watching his films and I took a look at his record over at Wikipedia (they have boxers records now also)

1--discounting the four KO victories he had when in his mid-fifties, coming back after a 15 year layoff (I can't take these opponents seriously at all) he was 39-7-1 with 27 KO's.

But looking at his record I found something very interesting.

In fights at Denver Lyle was 17-0 with 13 KO's. In fights outside of Denver Lyle was 22-7-1 with 14 KO victories and 4 KO defeats. This is a pretty spectacular home ring advantage. I can't think of many others like that. Officiating? He might have gotten some advantage here, but I don't think that is it. My guess it was the altitude. Denver is the highest above sea level major city in the USA. I think his opponents simply weren't sufficiently acclimated to the thin air and ran out of gas. He was acclimated as he lived there.

The film of the Shavers fight shows Shavers dominating for the first four rounds before running out of gas and just stopping fighting. Lyle then KO's him. I got to wonder what would have happened if this fight had been at sea level.

2--The Quarry fight shows a slow, plodding fighter who has relatively poor footwork against a fairly mobile fighter. Lyle in this one, and against Shavers, and also in his brief bit against Cooney, does not show a good jab. He paws with it and didn't seem to score effectively against any of them. Without the altitude advantage Denver gave him, Lyle didn't seem to have that much stamina, as has always been typical of big heavyweights. He slowed up round by round. I saw an average, uninspired big man, who didn't have the style (or ability) to take advantage of his size. That weakness against a moving target showed up also against Jimmy Young later, and also against the faded 38 year old Gregorio Peralta.

Bottom line--I part company with those who see Lyle as an awesome fighter. He did a hell of a job against Foreman, but Foreman having laid off a year and a half and not moving himself gave Lyle a stationary target. Against fighters with mobility, I think Lyle will be an easy victim. Against the eight Louis victims of 1950-1951 at the same venues, I think he goes about 6-2 or 5-3. Against Louis, he eats jabs all night and loses the decision.

 

I don't see Lyle as an "awesome fighter" either. Only a formidable foe for SOME elite fighters depending styles, circumstances and physical attributes. He had enough dealings with elite men to back this. Foreman was coming off a 15 month layoff.. Fair enough. Lyle was also coming off a beating from Muhammad Ali just as Foreman was and a tough scrap with Shavers. The loss to Quarry was during the novice stage of his career while the loss to Cooney was against an elite puncher in his prime while Ron was 40 years of age.

 

-He mixed it up some but Lyle also had his more successful moments when Quarry tried to box him at range.

-To some degree, perhaps but many of his fundamental weakness from the Quarry fight remained.

-Minimal size difference between Quarry and Maricano, maybe an inch in height at best. A fit Rocky ranged from 184-192, a fit Quarry from 187-200.

-I did, I wasn't limiting my description to the knockdowns but the events that led up to them. In the opening rounds, Lyle caught Foreman upright with straight right hands that seemed to leave him on uneasy legs for the rest of the fight.

-But a vulnerable fighter as Quarry exposed and one who ran out of gas while beating Lyle against the ropes. I hope Lyle wouldn't be foolish enough to bank on such a strategy against Marciano.

 

Fair points, but he had 19 fights under his belt when fighting Quarry and was already in his thirties. His performances against Peralta and Young I think make it pretty clear he always had trouble with boxers.

Ali? Lyle was well-schooled against the rope-a-dope and Ali frittered away round after round losing points in a tactical fight (I haven't watched the film in a while, but that is my memory). When Ali abandoned the rope-a-dope strategy and turned on the gas, Lyle quickly proved out of his depth.

 

Absolutely. Elite boxers like Ali, Young, and Holmes ( should they have ever fought ) would always be his weakness. No disagreement there. I think his track record against punchers ( minus Cooney when Lyle was washed up ) isn't bad though. George Foreman and Earnie Shavers commonly rival one another for the spot of hardest puncher of all time on a lot of people's lists. He defeated one of them and very nearly beat the other in two competitive and action packed fights. While an ATG like Rocky Marciano should certainly be favored to win, its not unreasonable to think that Ron Lyle could have proven a formidable test.

 

Tua, in shape, was quicker than Rocky and 30 pounds bigger... and he did not dominate the division.

Tyson was lightyears quicker than Marciano.

Frazier was much quicker of foot and hand and had an additional 5" of reach... and had his entire career brought full stop by a superheavy.

Bonavena and Norris did not come close to dominating the division.

If lifting weights were to make Rocky a better fighter, he would have lifted. Tyson hardly touched a weight pre prison was a natural, fit and trim 215.

Again, this combination of crucial traits (short, slow, light powerpuncher) never re-emerges post Marciano. And I am willing to bet it won't.

 

At least that's a far cry from your original claim that he "molested Quarry."

His biggest weaknesses were exposed against elite boxers ie, Young, Ali, etc.. He generally did pretty well against big punchers at close range.

Quarry only weighed in the 180's for his first 9 pro fights and when he was 20 years of age. His historical best fight weight was 195-200. Marciano only weighed in the 190's for maybe 4 fights and most of them weren't against notable opponents. He actually spent about as much time in the 170's as he did in the 190's. His best weight was probably 185, leaving an average 20 lbs difference. And Quarry is listed as being 6'0" while the rock is down at 5'10". Are these numbers exact? Maybe and maybe not, but they are the most commonly used. Ron Lyle is 6'3" and his best showings were between 215-220, giving him around five inches in height and 30 lbs on Rocky. Marciano rarely fought a man that big and virtually none who were quality contenders at that size.

Basically you're implying that the events which occurred in the first round, rendered Foreman vulnerable for the rest of the evening. I find this hard to believe given that he would recover from two future knockdowns to comeback and win the fight, while regularly exchanging huge shots and hurting ron throughout the match.. Point being - Lyle's best work was done when they fought up close and not when George just walked into shots.

He had his vulnerabilities. But Rock wasn't invincible either. He was decked a couple times in his career, got some iffy decisions, was cut up, and all while facing aged opponents of a smaller pedigree and dissimilar style to the man we're discussing. I know that this is over simplified to some extent, but the point is that it works both ways.

 

-No, Quarry did molest Lyle on the inside.

-Not really.

-He was 187 against Machen, 22 fights or so into his career. Quarry's weight flucuated alot because he was an inconsistent trainer. You wish to narrow it down to not just fit but best performance range, Quarry's 190-200 to Maricano 185-190.

-Quarry was listed at 6'0", Marciano was listed at 5'11.5". Both tend to get downgraded by an inch by the realists.

http://images.rarenewspapers.com/ebayimgs/11.2.2009/image005.jpg

-I'm going to revisit this one, I recall Lyle having his best work while boxing Foreman and countering, things going to hell when he started more freely mixing it up with Foreman.

-I see where you going with that but not the case. I'm not just nit picking bad moments from Lyle to give Maricano a chance. I'm not pointing to the Jimmy Young or Peralta fights or even Foreman. I think Shavers, Bonavena, and Quarry are relevant. And in the case of Maricano, his success against Louis.

 

Oh please, that was the last time Quarry weighed under 190 and he was routinely 193-198lbs, he scaled 188 when he was 20. He was 1.5inches taller than Marciano and a good ten pounds heavier.
I have Ring magazines going back to when JJW was Champ.Marciano was always listed as 5'10.5", that makes him an inch and a half shorter than Quarry.End of.

 

The Mongoose "-Quarry was listed at 6'0", Marciano was listed at 5'11.5". Both tend to get downgraded by an inch by the realists."______NO Marciano was 5'9" not 5'10" or more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0UAzjlwkEo





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Tua easily crushed former(albeit not great) champs in Moorer and Ruiz,I believe it was his total dependence on his left hook,inconsistent training(too heavy) and one dimensional style and not enough head movement,that kept him from being a champ.he wasn't as good as Norris or Tyson at "fighting short".Bonavena was slow,ponderous,one dimensional as well. i do not think being taller would have helped.he went 10 with big,power punching Lyle and 15 with Ali,giving him much trouble.he should have got the nod on the 1st Frazier fight,he decked Patterson(4th) but broke his hand.he beat Folley in their rematch and Chuvalo.Frazier was basically a one punch fighter and was partially blind in one eye for part of his career.Tyson again,I feel was one of the very best,and Norris was ducked by many for a long time at heavy(why he dropped to cruiser),and was an excellent albeit boring boxer.who knows, maybe even 5'11" Bert Cooper could have done better without the drug addiction.i think if you "fight short". like Qawi,Tyson,Norris,Marciano,height is not an issue.Marciano being slower at 205lb or more? I don't know,was Ali slower at 215lb than when he was a light heavy? was Holyfield slower at 210lb than 188lb? being stronger usually translates into speed,look at the size of a sprinter's legs,there huge.