Paul Gallender lays Ali-Liston II at the doors of the Nation of Islam

If it happened I bet the poor kid who got labelled Wesley felt pretty shafted.

It is as possible that all the kids were known only by pet names within their home like "Sonny" or "missy" and when they arrived in the city and needed actual official names the mother might not have remembered who was christened what since none of their official names actually stuck. In many family's nobody gets called by their real name. My own grandmother never did and only on the birth certificate did we ever find out it was the wrong name all along!

If "Sonny" was a pet name, I imagine the brother who got tagged with it was the youngest?

 

"lied to police that they were their own brother. Wouldn't work in 2014 of course."

Might not have worked that well in the 1940's either. They did have finger-printing. You would have to know that your brother had never been finger-printed either by the police or for military induction or a driver's license. Trying to pass yourself off as your brother would just be another crime as soon as they checked your fingerprints with the ones in the FBI file.

*Actually, a really smart crook would not use a grown brother, but would make up a totally non-existent person or use someone who was long dead (preferably died as a child) and would therefore probably not have fingerprints on file.

I think we should just agree to disagree. I really don't feel very strongly about this other than I see no evidence for any identity charade and for me there is nothing to explain about Sonny's apparent age.

 

I agree it must be between 1930 and 1932. No earlier. I think Sonny honestly did not know. Just like a lot of illiterate people. If you never went to school your date of birth is like remembering a telephone number. But two years is about all anyone past twenty can get away with. Sonny was absolutely about that young as an amateur.

 

Though Liston had a dry wit when he did open up I don't think he was that smart, he was known by the police as the checked shirt robber because he wore the same checked shirt in his crimes which he seemed to always get caught for, identification not being a major problem! On his age I think there's a good chance he was a few years older than thought .It's at least a live possibility imo.

 

One thing--once Sonny is brought in by the police, any identity charade means nothing as he would be fingerprinted and from then on the police would go by fingerprints for identification, not any alias.

I can believe he might possibly have been born in the late 1920's. That said, the census is the best evidence given, and 1930 as his birthdate is certainly reasonable.

But 1917 or 1919 just seen ridiculous.

 

yes I agree with that

 

If Liston took a dive ( it looks like he did ) this is plausible. The Black Muslim group was a hate group wanted to use Ali as their poster boy.

They could have very well given a lot of money and intimidated Liston into taking a dive.

Even Ali himself shouted for Liston to " GET UP AS NO BODY WILL BELIEVE THIS " in the ring.

 

Paul gallender wants to believe Liston could never lose.

On one hand he is saying Liston was in the shape of his life until the hernia delay. Liston was both capable of winning and twice Ali's age all at the same time.

He's also saying one faction of the black Muslims want Ali dead. Another faction within them want to kidnap Listons family and blackmail Liston into throwing a fight?

None of Listons family came forward about it after all these years.

Gallender is also freinds with Sonnys ghost....

 

There were indeed two factions within the Black Muslims and Ali was caught in the middle of them. The rift was caused by the schism between Elijah Muhammad and Malcolm X.

Cassius Clay had been recruited, groomed and mentored by Malcolm X.
They were the best of friends.

When Malcolm broke with the old man, Ali had renounced Malcolm and pledged his allegiance to Elijah Muhammad.
Malcolm's followers felt Ali had betrayed them.
Many of Elijah's followers didn't trust Ali and thought he still sympathized with Malcolm.

Bottom line, there were Black Muslims who wanted Ali dead and there were also Black Muslims who wanted him to remain champion.

 

I think it is very plausible that Liston's family was threatened or held hostage by the NOI.
It would not have been difficult for them to do and they were certainly capable of doing it.

I can't imagine an easier way for them to ensure Liston taking a dive.