Who was the best fighter a "prime" Ali fought?

The US government.

 

I said Foreman but in reality the tougher opponent in his prime was Frazier in the FOTC, I do consider that Ali's prime, in his younger days he was not as strong, he looked good against the big slow guys but Frazier would have been too much for a younger Ali

Ali's toughest foe in his prime was a prime Frazier in the FOTC IMO

 

I have no idea why you would include FOTC as being in Ali's prime. His prime leg work was a big part of who he was as an all time great and in both the Bonnavena and Frazier 1 bouts it looked like he would never emulate that ability again. In later bouts such as Frazier 2 some bounce came back to his legs and while exceptional for a heavyweight this was still clearly not the ability he had in 1967.

 

Definitely its prime.....

 

Ali before retirement would not have been strong enough IMO to handle that Frazier of FOTC, I have seen all of Ali's fights and FOTC was before Foreman and ALI 2 was a much stronger and mature fighter than Ali 1, he may have looked better vs lesser opposition but lets face it Frazier was the toughest opponent physically and mentally in the FOTC, it is a positive fact that Frazier went downhill from the FOTC but fact is that his toughest opponent style wise and physically was Joe Frazier on the FOTC

I dont think ALI 1 WOULD HAVE HAD THE MENTAL MATURITY nor the physical strength to overcome Frazier of FOTC nor Foreman's early blast.

Ali of FOTC was the best version of Ali IMO even though it was a losing fight, it just so happened to be a prime (and the Best) Frazier and fighter that he shared a ring with

 

I don't see any significant evidence that Muhammad Ali was stronger in those fights than he was in the sixties, and frankly his style was not built around physical strength to begin with. He was 215 for the FOTC and 216 for the Foreman fight. He was 214 1/2 for his bout with a very physically strong and imposing George chuvalo in 1966 and actually looked leaner and more cut despite being roughly the same weight suggesting possible muscle loss and fat gain. Even if by slight chance he was a little bit stronger in his latter years, the marginal difference wouldn't have been enough to outweigh the benefits of having the additional agility and stamina that he had lost. His speed on film was visibly superior pre-exile as was his stamina to maintain that speed and work rate over 12-15 rounds. The 70's saw a more flat footed Ali who frequently took breaks to lay on the ropes and hold behind the head. Still very effective no doubt, but the one who fought during the flower child era was a class above.

 

Watching Ali vs Chuvalo leads me to believe he wasn't that much more elusive and active than FOTC as often made out to be.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRhBnojRQQM[/url]


[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctKAGKVpCUU[/url]

To my eyes at least, the real drop off is circa Norton a few years later. Or certainly Frazier II and Zaire.

 

I dont really see much of a difference from the 60's Ali to the early 70's except for the opponents Chuvalo,Big Cat,Foley to Frazier for one is a big step upwards

 

I think that is the bottom line. ALI did not fight anyone quite as good or good and prime before his exile. ALI had some good early 1970s wins that were on par. Quarry rematch in 72 was good and his 12 rounder with Frazier was a great mature boxing exhibition where he stuck to a plan.

 

Frazier was definately in his prime in 1971. Not only was he in his prime, he was also well prepared and at his absolute best ever.

Was Ali? If he wasn't, he wasn't missing it by much.

Result? Frazier W15

What about Liston I in 1964? Liston was very good, maybe even at his best in 1964, there is no reason to think otherwise. He had stopped Floyd Patterson in the 1st round in two consecutive fights. Prior to Patterson (from 1960 until the two Patterson fights) he had stopped Howard King x2, Cleveland Williams (for the 2nd time), Roy Harris, Zora Folley, he decisioned Eddie Machen, and stopped Albert Westphal. Was Ali at his best? I actually think Ali got better after this fight, he was pretty awesome though.

Foreman was supposed to kill Ali. He had stopped Frazier in 2 and Norton in 2. Both of these men had beat Ali by decision. Ali was a little past his best but he was well prepared and really rose to the occassion in 1974. Ali was determined to win no matter what Foreman had to offer. Was Foreman at his best ever? I think Foreman was in his prime but was not quite 100% by fight time (if that makes sense). Ali was comfortable in Zaire, Foreman wasn't. Foreman wanted to reschedule the fight after getting cut in sparring but was talked into staying while the cut healed. During that time Ali gained an edge mentally and strategically.

 

...close to even??? Ali (Clay at the time) dominated Liston (except for the short period when Ali 's vision was impaired). Liston didn't quit because he was winning the fight, he didn't quit because it was close to even either, he quit because he had no chance at winning... pure frustration.

The rematch? Ali did drop him but Liston was ok to continue. You can thank Nat Fleischer for ruining the fight. Yes, Jersey Joe was the ref but Nat had a lot of pull and I blame him.

 

My opinion of course but had Ali remained fighting from March 67 forward, he would have met Joe (wouldn't you say?) sometime in 69? No one can say because we didn't see him in the period but IMO he would have whomped Frazier circa late 69. A tough fight, granted, but I think he would have stopped a late 69 Joe late. Keep in mind that the 2nd Ali (against his handlers wishes) rushed himself into the FOTC in only 3 months after a brutal 15 rounder with Oscar! Had they fought the FOTC in the summer of 71 you may well have seen a different result.

 

If that your opinion, so be it, but I think the majority of people saying that are caught up in mythologizing Ali. Nor was the fight almost stopped during Ali's "blind" round. The cards were even (referee: [url]Barney Felix[/url] 57-57 | judge: [url]Bernie Lovett[/url] 58-56 | judge: [url]Gus Jacobson[/url] 56-58). Liston had been splitting rounds, but didn't look good in the last round of the fight, which could have been the injury more than anything.

 

Hookie I agree with you about Foreman, but not Liston & Frazier.

Mr. Magoo is right on.

Liston took Ali for granted, was too slow, lunging, not sticking to an effective jab strategy...Sometimes when guys "get old" suddenly, it is lack of effort in part re: training, like Lewis vs. Klitchko.

Frazier was at the end of hs prime, but I think he was even better phsyically around '69 vs. Foster, though a lesser opponent.

Ali did rush himself for FOTC. Hubris.

He was also signfcantly faster in the 60's & the body compositions points are good ones.
I see no reason he could not have beaten Frazier & Foreman. It just would not need to be ropes & pulling on the neck.

 

You might want to invest in a pair of glasses.