How good was Ken Norton?

Jack Sharkey certainly had more losses and less K.O. victories than Ken Norton during his career, but the former had the same number of knockout losses (four), wins against a greater variety of good fighters and was usually more competitive in his knockout losses in comparison to Norton.

Norton also has a far better win-loss record and many more knockout wins than Jimmy Young. But Young was far more competitive against a variety of good fighters than Norton and was only stopped by Earnie Shavers and Gerry Cooney (both Shavers and Cooney also stopped Norton). In addition to being one of two fighters to win a bout with a prime George Foreman (another fighter who stopped Norton), Young won in his two bouts with Ron Lyle by lopsided verdicts, drew in his second bout with Shavers and lost disputed decisions in bouts with Muhammad Ali and Norton.

- Chuck Johnston

 

sorry about that. It is a good point you make about unconscious bias, perhaps we are all guilty of that! I think that because of the depth of champions we have there is not room for Norton n a top twenty. He was good but not that good. The championship x factor was missing. He should have convincingly beat ALi that last time. Spinks did. Norton was capable, and he was better than spinks.

Over all Norton did not fight as many top contenders as Jack Sharkey. percentage wise I think Jack fought more rated guys. The 1930s and late 1920s was a pretty good era on the quiet. Joe Louis was the top heavyweight of the 1940s but he was knocked out by a 1930s champion.

 

Good points on Sharkey & Young gentleman.

I wonder & reserve judgment on them. A bette record certainly does not guarantee a better fighter.

 

Ken Norton went 42-7-1 (33) overall and 0-3 in HW World Title fights. He was the WBC HW Champ for a short period in 1978. He was proclaimed champion by the WBC when Leon Spinks refused to defend against him, he lost the WBC title in his first defense to Larry Holmes, LSD15. Spinks went on to lose the WBA belt and lineal world title to Ali in their rematch.

Jimmy Young had been robbed vs. Ali for the HW world title, then Young upset Foreman. Norton beat Young. Norton was looked at as "The People's Champ" by a lot of people.

Also, most people felt Norton was robbed vs. Ali in their rubber match (for the HW world title).

So, Norton fought Ali 3 times. He won their first fight by decision and even broke Ali's jaw. Ali won their 2nd fight but it was close. Most felt Norton won their 3rd fight but the decision went to Ali.

His loss to Holmes was very close, a split-decision. Many felt Norton won or that the fight could have been a draw. Norton was a little past prime but was well prepared.

Norton went 1-2 vs. Ali and 0-3 in world title fights but a case can be made that he should have went 6-0 in his fights vs. Ali, Holmes, Young, and Quarry.

Norton beat Young by decision. Norton stopped Quarry in the 5th round. He also stopped Joe Luis Garcia, Henry Clark, Boone Kirkman, Ron Stander, Larry Middleton, Duane Bobick, and Lorenzo Zanon among others.

As a past prime fighter he beat Tex Cobb by decision and drew with Scott LeDoux.

6'3" with an 80" and ripped at 220Lbs. He had good overall skills, a good workrate, good stamina, decent power, physical strength.

His chin is looked at as not great but he took good shots from Ali in 3 fights and from Holmes. He was stopped in the 2nd round by Foreman but so was Frazier and nobody says his chin was bad. Garcia stopped him before he peaked. He stopped Garcia in a rematch. Shavers and Cooney stopped him when he was washed up, but I admit both losses (both 1st round KO losses) were brutal.

Fights with Lyle and Bugner would have been interesting. He should have fought Shavers a few years earlier. This would have provided a lot of information in my opinion.

 

If Norton had been awarded a 2nd win against Ali, as he probably should have, history would remember him more fondly. Being the only man to beat Ali more than once is a description he is probably entitled to, but never received.

 

Yes, Ken Norton had a 42 (including 33 knockout wins)-7 (including 4 knockout losses)-1 record, but Ron Lyle had a 43 (including 31 knockout wins)-7 (including 4 knockout losses)-1 one. When comparing how they performed against common opponents, Norton was better in bouts with Muhammad Ali, Jimmy Young and Jerry Quarry while Lyle was better in bouts with Earnie Shavers and George Foreman.

Lyle was very competitive in stoppage losses to Ali and Foreman, but was stopped in short order by Lynn Ball and Gerry Cooney. In his knockout loss to Jose Luis Garcia, Norton lasted until the eighth round, but was stopped in short order in bouts with Foreman, Shavers and Cooney.

- Chuck Johnston

Note- Believe it or not, I liked Norton personally. I also thought he was a fine fighter, but he never won decisively when facing an elite fighter and was always stopped in short order whenever he faced a hard-hitting elite fighter. Jerry Quarry was past his peak when stopped by Norton.

 

I don't know many people who think Norton beat Holmes. It was a great fight but decisive win for Holmes in the eyes of those who scored it regardless of the official SD result.

On "eye on the ring" a website devoted to scoring split decisions Holmes vs Norton was given a "controversy rating" of 0% with all fans who score it picking Holmes.

Norton was the name fighter and I am sure with Holmes being less known at that time nobody was looking for a Holmes win and reluctant to give him the close rounds. I still don't think Ken won enough rounds for it to be that close, although it was competative.

The the best rounds were close but it took a long time for Ken to get into the fight. Holmes finished stronger and outboxed Norton in most of the quieter rounds in the first half of the fight. Quite a boxing masterclass. Ken could not corner Holmes and was picked off a lot.

 

No. It was not only Ali.

He gave Prime Larry Holmes hell in the fight of year. That fight could have easily gone Norton's way. ^

Ali and Holmes rank TOP 5 ATG Heavyweights

 

Jerry Quarry, Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young ..... it's getting like a who's who of overrated heavyweights here.
Norton deserves in that club I reckon.
I think Young and Quarry are still leading the pack in overratedness though.

 

I don't think that fight could've gone either way. Holmes won. There's a better argument for Young beating Norton than there is for Norton beating Holmes if you want to play that game.

Let's not lose sight of the context because of how pretty Ali's and Holmes' names look on a resume. It was Holmes' first title fight and Ken was level with a post-Thrilla Ali who wasn't nearly as hard to beat (B guys like Young and Shavers were giving him hell at that stage. He was a couple fights away from Spinks beating him).

Norton caught Ali in the first fight and for that, I give him full credit. It was a great win. However, I stand by my claim that he's overrated on a legacy and head to head basis as a result.

Still a fine fighter, and it's no disrespect on him. It's the fans that do it.

 

This is a new line of attack I've not yet witnessed on this forum. And I like it. :good

I think resumes/quality of opposition/willingness to fight dangerous foes needs to be weighted this way, with guys who got PAID WELL to fight the best opponents being down-marked.

Norton scores very low, because he got blasted out by those 3 guys, AND he got paid lots.
I think the likes of Dempsey and Tyson fare quite badly too, because they got paid MEGA BUCKS to knock out some weaklings.


Norton would have done better to get his head knocked about for free, just to show his willingness. In my opinion. Of course, an LKO1 is still an LKO1 but when you do it for such huge paydays .... it's kinda worse than an LKO1 even.

:smoke

 

Underratedness is a hard thing to quantify when assessments vary from person to person. Average-underratedness is probably the more accurate term.

But I do agree with you on Young & Quarry. Both underrated fighters :good

 

I disagree.

Yes, it was Holmes 1st title fight but he was 28 years old and had more than 30 fights. He also had defeated decents fighters like Earnie Shavers before. Physically, he was in better shape than during his title reign

This was a Prime Holmes in my view.

According to broadcast commentators, the fight was so close that an argument could be made for a Norton victory or a draw

 

Agreed. Holmes was at his pinnacle. I have heard comments made about him facing Norton with a torn bicep muscle but I don't know the details. Still, Ken Norton was in great shape for that fight, well seasoned and with the type of style for troubling boxers. This always would have been a close match.

 

I have just reviewed Norton v Holmes again. Norton blew it!

The first 6 rounds were a shut out for Holmes, Norton watched Holmes out box him but ken evened things up by round 12 as Larry faded and Norton stepped up. The last three rounds were a street fight. and Larry had the edge over the last three.

Scoring the rounds there is a case for it being close..... but morally Holmes showed clearer superiority over the first 6 rounds where as from round 7-12 that Ken did better in were closer. Norton was also in most trouble of the two. in round 13 ken looked close to being saved by the bell.