Ingemar Johansen vs Cleveland Williams

Matt,

Do you have the March 1960 rankings for heavyweight division? I want to see if Williams was ranked when Liston beat him.

 

Just a point on Miteff, though. Going into the Williams fight, he had lost 3 of his last 4, 5 of his last 9, and 7 of his last 14.

Miteff was a Friday night regular from Madison Square Garden. This kind of a high rating (above DeJohn who had KO'd him in one) and Cleroux (24-2-1 at the time, having KO'd Harris and split with Chuvalo) makes you wonder a bit if TV appearances determined ratings.

*Off the subject though.

**The other thing I would notice is that Williams was not rated at all at this point, and that might be a little odd also. But Williams was NOT at this point a Friday night regular.

 

Might I ask if losing to all the guys he was losing to didn't drop Miteff out of the ratings, why should losing to the much more formidable Liston have dropped Williams out of the ratings?

 

"Ingo's isn't deep is it."

Not at all, but he did KO the two top rated heavyweights in the world at one point, and neither had been KO'd before. Williams just didn't do something like that at any point.

 

I have been through my father's collection of 1960-61 boxing illustrated magazines that produced official National Boxing Association rankings.

So far miteff was rated #7 from the end of 1960 in October and November and December even though he lost to #2 machen in June and #5 Henry Cooper a day after the ratings were printed in December. No rating for Williams in either of those months.

In Febuary 1960.

Patterson
1.Liston
2.Machen
3.Johansson.
4.Folley
5.Cooper
6 DeJohn
7.miteff
8.Moore
9.chuvalo
10.hunter

The February ratings have Miteff and WIlliams absent.

patterson
1.Liston
2.Machen
3.Johansson.
4.Folley
5.Cooper
6 DeJohn
7.Moore
8.chuvalo
9.Richardson
10.Hunter

So what happened between February and December for Miteff to lose his rating? Was it the Cooper loss in December that had not quite made February's issue?

In March miteff has two fights, a win over unranked Alonzo Johnson then loses by split decision to #8 George chuvalo. Somehow this earns miteff a ranking at the expence of Dick Richardson by the start of May when miteff meets the yet unranked Cleveland Williams.

NBA. World ratings may 1961
1.Liston
2.Machen
3.Cooper
4.Folley
5.Johansson.
6.chuvalo
7.DeJohn
8.Moore
9.miteff
10.lavorante

So it looks like miteff was indeed rated in spite of losing his last fight. It seems because he lost to fighters who were ranked higher than he was he kept a rating until he lost to an unranked but well known fighter in Cleveland Williams. This trend seems to have kept Williams rated after this point too. From that point on big cat Williams was rated #6 in august and #8 in September and #5 in October 1961 even though Williams did not fight in either June, July, August, September or october. Williams next fight after beating Miteff was December against 7-15-3 James Wiley...

So it appears miteff had a threadbare ranking hen he lost to Williams. I was wrong!

 

I'd give Williams a very live chance against Floyd.
I'm not sold on the Machen fight either, one round kos are often misleading. a guy gets caught cold. Dokes v Weaver.Sheppard v Maxim rematches,showed that, but Ingo would never entertain a rematch with Machen.

 

I'll return the compliment you gave me.Well done for admitting it.:good

 

March 1960, Ring;

champion-johansson
1-folley
2-patterson
3-liston
4-machen
5-cooper
6-hunter
7-harris
8-miteff
9-DeJohm
10-erskine

 

"I'd give Williams a very live chance against Floyd."

Okay. But clearly Johansson had a very live chance. It is speculation about Williams.

"I'm not sold on the Machen fight either"

Well, Ingo can't really do much more than brutally knock the guy out. Williams didn't.

"Ingo would never entertain a rematch with Machen."

Why exactly should he? It was not a fight the public was clamoring for. Machen went on to lose to Folley, Liston, and Johnson by the time Ingo was done with Patterson. I remember the boxing mags in those years. The fights they were talking up for Ingo were with Liston and Moore, not a rematch with Machen.

 

I would note that Johansson had knocked out 3 of the next 5 top heavyweights.

He hardly can be accused of backing into the title, despite all the critics on this thread.

 

As if Ingo would go anywhere near Liston.

 

You are certain of this?

As for myself, I am not at all sure a man who got into the ring with the heavyweight champion and the number one contender was afraid of anyone.

It is hard to imagine a much more brutal knockout than Johansson suffered against Patterson in 1960. Nine months later he was back in the ring against Patterson, acquitting himself pretty well. I don't buy into the Ingo is a coward refrain.

 

I know Johannson turned down one million dollars to fight Liston.