Why is Leonard ranked #2 welter?

so what does that mean, you think Leonard wouldve whipped Monzon? :nut

why are you telling me about Hagler srl for?

Berbick - Ali is a great win too for Berbick but what kind of condition was Ali in?

was he the sharp, trim energetic and young Ali of the mid sixies or the fat lifeless slob of the early 80s?

this is why I never brag about Berbick, good as he was

and you shouldnt brag about Leonard either considering it took Hagler five years to digress physically enough for Leonard to come chasing after him

that's right, the guy he never wanted any part of, and suddenly he comes chasing after him after 5 years "come on Hagler I'm ready for you. dont listen to your wife and this talk of retirement, FIGHT ME!"

shame on you for bringing it up. dont you people ever feel any shame?

you try and pretend nothing fishy is going on, or that Hagler looks the same as always. This is why I throw in that quote from the fight, the one you liars always ignore

even more than that, you people put on an act that it was Leonard's style & versatility that finally brought Hagler's reign to an end and Hagler's decline had no impact of Ray's decision to unretire and select Hagler as his first comeback opponent, not willing to risk a fight with washed up Hagler with Curry who they had to talk out of taking a fight with Hagler

you stupid ignorant liars


then, you continue the decepton as you always do with "the stoppage of Benitez was a good one. it was legitimate"

that's crap too. I'm not even a fan of Wilfred but stoppage was BS no matter what you say or want me to believe

becuz my eyes dont lie to me. YOU DO

then you try tearing down Napoles' image saying "yeah he beat a few average joes (which I just happened to look up somewhere ) then lost to a few average Joes"

you neglect to mention however that Jose did not have the luxury of weeding out his opponents and had turned pro in 1958 before winning the title eleven years later and held onto it till 1975, something your man would NEVER have been able to do

so throw out passive lamb Benitez and way over the hill ready for pasture Hagler and what do you have?

I also wouldnt count the loss to Stracey if Napoles was at the end of his rope ready to be knocked off which you wouldnt know about anyways since you never even saw it

The two are just cut from a different cloth. If Ray had more of a career instead of just SETTLING (his fans are the same way) and DONE MORE with his career, I'd agree with you

but his career is just too short and lacking, and forces people like you into using deception to embellish his resume while painting a negative picture of the opposing career of his competition, an old trick they use in politics all the time and on rival Tijuana brothels

wins over Pryor & Curry would have done wonders for his reputation. he'd ever have to fight again and no one would ever question him

but becuz of the conspicuous timing of his comebacks, and the selection of opponents, his resume is a mess and an embarrassment with those spectacles, Lalonde especially

 

what is my opinion for thinking it? the fact that I've seen more of him than you. That's one

The fact that I don't play dumb about it. That's two

The fact that I watched him in sparring two weeks prior to the fight and he looked like **** and was embarassed by his sparring partners. That's three

The fact that Leonard wanted no part of him five years before when Leonard had already been cleared to fight. That's four

The fact that after Hagler defeated Mugabi, Ray shouted out "I can beat Hagler" but never made such claims while doing commentary since Hagler's first defense. That's five

The fact that during the Hamsho fight of 1981, Ray kept claiming he "wanted Hagler" then but by the end of the fight backed out and dropped the subject. That's six


The fact that Ray came out of retirement after watching Hagler extended by Duran, but then re-retired when he wound up on his ass by some journeyman. That's seven

See? the problem wasnt his eye, it was his heart. He even said so "it just wasnt there"

big chicken needed another three years

and when you say things like "Hagler was not washed up vs. Leonard. I'm not saying he was at his all-time best, but there is no reason to think he was missing it by much. What is your criteria for this opinion?" you want to play these games, you're only kidding yourself. You're not kidding me.

reason eight, the tape itself round six. In the words of Tim Ryan "Sugar Ray said he was counting on the slowness of Hagler. he said that he lost alot of speed"

so why get Hagler with just a little bit of slip when you can get him with alot of slip and better your chances?

still interested in games?

reason nine "thanks for softening him up for me buddy" Ray Leonard to Juan Roldan

why would Ray want any part of prime Hagler if he had several chances to have a go at him and turned him down each time?

you going to use his claim his eye prevented him from fighting? he was cleared to fight in 1982 and fought till the age of 40

EXPLAIN THAT

You're just as stuck as that other poster Robert who started this morning and couldnt finish

you just asked me to explain myself and I did while you get away with things like "I respect Napoles. I just think Ray was better"

you set the bar low for yourself but high for others to help your case and we both know what that means

personally I dont think you can go on with this so I'll just let you leave with grace. We both know you're a big Leonard fan anyways

 

Julio is guilty of the same thing, being protected until he faced more serious challenges for big bucks and floundered, both against Taylor who I believe beat him, and more so Whitaker but the fix was in, and had his padded record protected with a draw

Same problem occurred when ray decided to take chances with norris, perhaps no longer having Mike Trainer whispering in his ear not to take these kinds of fights, and predictably wound up getting the worst of it

I'm not saying Chavez & Leonard arent good quality fighters, only that they are overrated and needed much help and manuvering in parts of their careers against certain fighters - Leonard agnst Hagler, & Nunn, who he skipped altogether

You also have Chavez avoiding certain fighters, most notably Hector Camacho when the two of them were competing in the same division at the same time with Hector always at the top, whom Julio played second fiddle to

Are you kidding? Hector with his lightning speed, his movement, his guile, his defense wouldve been five steps ahead of a tortured Chavez

Like the 1987 figt with Hagler, JC's bout with Camacho was way past due and so neither really amounted do much. they both have wins over name fighters but Berbick also has win over Ali for what that's worth