Which Heavyweight Champs beat Sonny?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Jun 20, 2014.


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  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Which heavyweight champions beat a prime Sonny Liston ?


    I don't think it is a long list.:think
     
    mcvey, Jun 20, 2014
    mcvey, Jun 20, 2014
    #1
  2. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Definitely:

    Joe Louis
    Muhammad Ali

    Maybe:

    Lennox Lewis
    Wladimir Klitscko


    That's it. A 1958-1960 Sonny Liston was an absolute monster.
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2014
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2014
    #2
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    These threads are always difficult and decisive. If you think Liston quit dog whilst heavyweight champion of the world it is easy to pick the great heavyweights over him, for example. But that is perhaps the most contentious fight in boxing history.

    It leaves Liston's status versus the great heavies as a matter of opinion to a greater degree than any other champion.

    I do disagree, Q, with your Wlad "maybe." It's hard to think of a fighter more likely to beat Wladimir, really.
     
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    #3
  4. Joejr

    Joejr Boxing Addict banned

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    Ali,Holmes,Tyson, rocky, Lewis, Wald, vitali
     
    Joejr, Jun 20, 2014
    Joejr, Jun 20, 2014
    #4
  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Wladimir Klitschko of 2007-2011 is a 6'6 250lb athletic monster. He had an unbelievable sense of range, High ring IQ, ATG left jab, devastating one punch knock out power in his right hand and left hook, extremely fast hands, nice footwork, and freakish physical strength. Wlad in his prime could beat ANYONE on a given night. Guy has a nightmare style to beat.
    Listons great physical strength, punching power, and 84" reach will prevent him from being manhandled and I would make him the favorite over Wlad.


    Liston and W Klitschko are both h2h monsters, top 5 ATGs in the heavyweight division. In my opinion. Both are the complete package. Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight of all time though. Maybe the greatest fighter of all time.
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2014
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2014
    #5
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Huge reach, great jab, great jaw, KO power in both hands. Liston is, on paper, a literal construct of Wlad's worst nightmare.

    If you saying you hold Wlad in regard high enough that you would list him as maybe versus anyone, I disagree but OK. What I am saying to you is, I wouldn't name any more likely to beat Wlad than Liston. His weaknesses are weaknesses that Wlad cannot exploit, meanwhile Liston's strengths (huge physical strength, good infighting ability, an enormous ATG jab) are the specific ones you would want to have to beat Wlad.
     
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
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  7. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Liston's footwork is a bit bumbling and not exactly fluid. Wlad has excellent footwork and light feet. It's what has saved him for the past 8 years. I think he escapes Liston in the early rounds while shipping enough damage to slow Liston down and coasts the second half of the fight in typical Waldo fashion (yawn)...
     
    Seamus, Jun 20, 2014
    Seamus, Jun 20, 2014
    #7
  8. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Liston is quite a bit smaller though. 6'1" 212lb.
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2014
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2014
    #8
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    But he's essentially stationary in terms of mobility.

    So, whilst he might "forage" with his footwork, he's not going to lead any merry dances. Presuming (and I think it's reasonable to presume) that he is matched for jab, Wlad needs more than that to protect his chin, which I am absolutely sure cannot hold a Liston punch. Wlad surviving twelve rounds against a ring-general of these physically capabilities is unimaginable. So who is more likely to knock who out?

    I'll say this: if Wladimir can beat Liston, he can beat any of them. Because Liston is the embodiment of all that he should fear.
     
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    #9
  10. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Wlad also holds a huge speed advantage over Liston, and is much quicker on his feet. Liston was never overly aggresive like foreman(which might suit better vs Wlad)...liston was content at times boxing from the outside waiting and guessing. Wlad might keep him guessing from the outside all night..
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2014
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2014
    #10
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yes, but what is the significance on this occasion?

    Can Wlad out-jab Liston cleanly enough to dominante and control him with that punch? No. Can he manhandle Liston inside with leans and pushes? Almost certainly not. Can he out-punch him in a fire-fight? Almost inarguably no. The important size factor here is reach, and Liston either out-reaches Wlad, matches him, or is very narrowly out-reached depending upon your view of the physics of the situation.

    Wlad has become great by controlling range and tempo. I believe if you are good enough to take one away from him, it will make a difficult night's work for him. If you can take away both, you will beat him every time. Liston is just the right man for that job of work. If I had to pick a fighter to beat Wlad with my life on the line it would be Liston.
     
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    McGrain, Jun 20, 2014
    #11
  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    All strong arguments, and I do favor Liston over Wlad.

    One point. Liston was not super aggresive. If the opponent didn't force action(Whitehurst) Liston was content to box from the outside. I could very well see a scenario with it being a jabbing match on the outside all night, with Liston landing a few huge blows(possibly flooring Wlad), but Wlad beating Liston to the punch all night with his quick pinpoint right hand...Liston would have no defense for Wlads right hand.
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2014
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2014
    #12
  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    At his brilliant and motivated best, which admittedly was brief, very few could have withstood him.
     
    janitor, Jun 20, 2014
    janitor, Jun 20, 2014
    #13
  14. JLP 6

    JLP 6 Fighter/Puncher Full Member

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    Very nice!

    Liston had no footwork issues. He have never seen him throw a punch wildly or out of position to fire. He cut the ring behind the jab, all the while slipping and dipping.

    Sonny was picture perfert!

    Louis and Ali only.
     
    JLP 6, Jun 20, 2014
    JLP 6, Jun 20, 2014
    #14
  15. lepinthehood

    lepinthehood When I'm drinking you leave me well alone banned Full Member

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    george foreman
    larry holmes
    lennox lewis
    vitali kltchko
    joe louis
     
    lepinthehood, Jun 20, 2014
    lepinthehood, Jun 20, 2014
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