Why did Marciano Choose to defend against Charles than Valdez ?

DubbleChin,

Who is the easier fight for Marciano in 1954-1955. Archie Moore or Nino Valdes?

 

Valdes v Jackson does not look like a fight between two world class fighters. Ok valdes won. On paper it looks ok until you see the fight. Jackson looked game and raw, valdes just a big mauler. Both wide open and missing each other.

I don't know what the fuss is about. Marciano defended against better fighters.

To be honest Baker v Satterfeild presents a better example of lost opportunities. Those two fought better, showing more quality than Nino and Jackson.

 

First, you don't know if Valdes "died" against Moore in 1955. Nobody saw it. Moore won the last "two" rounds ... according to the ref and ONE reporter.

I can't emphasize that enough.

The recent Provodnikov-Algieri fight is a perfect example of a fight where you have two guys with radically different styles. The judge sitting with the HBO crew had it wide for Provodnikov. Two other judges with different views on different sides of the ring BOTH had it the other way.

But if the fight wasn't recorded and all we had to go one was the comments from Steve Weisfeld, Jim Lampley and Teddy Atlas, you'd think Ruslan won a near shutout. But that's not what happened. And even the biased people in the Valdes-Moore fight didn't call it a shutout. They had it as close as you can get it.

Everyone just takes for granted that Valdes-Moore 15-round fight was scored accurately by Jim Braddock. People do because NOBODY SAW IT. It wasn't shown on closed circuit. It wasn't on radio. It wasn't on TV. It was held in the desert.

We ALL know how a close fight between guys with two different styles can be seen a lot of different ways.

Like two other judges never in a million years would've given it to Valdes?

Please.

Regarding Joe Louis, Joe Louis' jab "destroyed" Rocky's face. And all Louis had was a jab. His right hand didn't even fire anymore. There were fights at the end of his career where all Joe Louis threw was a jab. I can't recall which fight it was, I think it was one of them against Agramonte, that a reporter counted that Louis threw maybe 10 right hands the whole fight.

Nino punched with two hands and he was taller and had a longer reach than the elderly Louis.

 

I don't know. We saw Marciano-Moore. We didn't see Marciano-Valdes. Charles and ****ell gave Rocky tough nights, and they didn't give Valdes any trouble. He beat both handily - easier than Rocky did.

I always laugh when people say it's Valdes' fault he didn't fight Marciano because he didn't beat Moore. Valdes thought he DID beat Moore. And nobody can present any visual proof he didn't.

Marciano fought all his number-one "Logical" contenders - except Valdes. And if everyone Marciano defended against from 1953 to 1955 had to beat Archie Moore first, who would've beaten Moore?

Would La Starza had beaten Archie? Would ****ell?

Would that version of Ezzard Charles have beaten Archie Moore? Would Walcott in Jersey Joe's last fight?

Harold Johnson and Bob Baker got knocked out by Archie Moore.

Valdes went 15 rounds with Moore, and even by the accounts of people who were biased against Valdes, it was razor-thin to the very end.

Styles make fights. Archie Moore fought nothing like Marciano. Valdes fought nothing like Moore.

None of Marciano's challenges possessed Valdes' size, reach and power. Some could hit harder. Some boxed better but didn't hit as hard.

I think the Valdes who was on a roll at the end of 1954 and early 1955 would've given Rocky Marciano one hell of a fight. It would've been nice to see. But it's clear Weill did what he could to block that Valdes-Marciano fight from happening. If Jim Norris had any say, they would've fought as early as the fall of 1954.

Instead, Weill chose Charles again - even though Marciano had just defeated him and the N.B.A. didn't feel Charles' fight warranted an immediate return - and ****ell ... because they were easier fights (and Marciano ended up having tough nights with both).

That's what happened.

Marciano fans label people who point that out as Marciano-haters. But if you point out Jimmy Young was arguably the best heavyweight when he was on his roll, nobody labels you an Ali-hater and point out every last guy who ever beat Jimmy Young.

People just say, yeah, maybe, could've been, for a little while in there.

Had he fought Marciano and won, Valdes was never going to be a champion for any length of time. He was too streaky. But like all fighters when they are on streaks, when he was hot, he was hot. And when Weill bypassed Valdes, Nino was hot.

He deserved his shot. That's all I'm saying.

(Sorry these posts are so long ... I tend to ramble. And thanks for debating. I really enjoy your posts - both here and when you posted on Boxrec. I did learn a lot from you I didn't know before. Peace. )

 

If you think that Marciano or his management avoided Valdez, then the burden of proof is on you as the person asserting it.

I submit that you have not met your burden of proof.

 

On the eve of Marciano-Charles 1, the president of the I.B.C. publicly stated he wanted Marciano to fight the winner of Valdes-Jackson. (Valdes won.)

After Rocky won a decision over Charles, the N.B.A. refused to give Ezzard "logical" contender status. The I.B.C. president wanted Marciano to fight Valdes. Weill chose Charles again.

After Marciano knocked out Charles in their rematch, the N.B.A. deemed Valdes the number one contender as well as the "logical" contender. (They didn't strip fighters of their titles, but the ruling meant Valdes was the only guy they wanted Marciano to fight). And the I.B.C. president stated he wanted Marciano to defend against Valdes in February and was scheduling a meeting with Weill to discuss the fight. Weill turned him down.

In February, Weill staged an exhibition with Marciano with oversized headgear to try to impress on reporters that Rocky couldn't fight Valdes because his nose was still injured. But the reporters that Marciano looked fine and they thought the exhibition was ridiculous.

Two weeks after the exhibition, Weill announced Marciano was fighting ****ell, not Valdes.

That's called "avoiding Nino Valdes."

It certainly wasn't a case of Marciano's team "doing everything in their power to fight Nino Valdes but everyone else in the sport was trying to stop them."

 

It's not speculating at all.


All the ranking and sanctioning bodies and officials had Valdes not only rated number one, they had him as Marciano's "mandatory." ("logical" contender)

And Marciano didn't fight him.

In February, Marciano's team could have announced a fight with Valdes in the summer of 1955, like they announced in February a fight with ****ell for that summer. His nose wasn't injured then. Hell, it wasn't injured in February.

But they didn't.

They went against all the ratings organizations and the governing bodies and they fought ****ell instead of Valdes.

There's nothing "tenuous" about it. That's what they did.

If he "avoided" him because he was "afraid" his nose wouldn't hold up and they'd "lose," then he still avoided him because he was afraid he'd lose.

I don't know why this is so difficult to come to grips with.

IT HAPPENED. Deal with it.

 

Dubblechin has not provided any concrete strong evidence proving

A. marcianos camp avoided valdes
B. Valdes had a good shot to beat Marciano

 

Dubblechin


Do you give Archie Moore a lot of credit for beating the "Prime" Nino Valdes in 1955? Clearly you have a very high opinion on the peak version of Nino Valdes. This must be a great win for Archie then?