Why did Marciano Choose to defend against Charles than Valdez ?

HEGrant,

Answer me these two questions..

1. Was Nino Valdes the bigger threat to Marciano than Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, and Archie Moore?


2. Joe Louis and Nino Valdes were both the same size at 214lb. Who would you say had the better boxing skills? Who had the better jab?

 

Mendoza,

Reports stated Valdes "Died in the last couple rounds vs Archie Moore". He also got tired against Satterfield in the later rounds. What do you think Marciano would do to Valdes, if Valdes began to feel tired in the championship rounds? Think Marciano was the kind of guy that would let you off the hook when you got tired? Valdes would be battered into submission. Rocky would be all over Valdes until he hollers uncle. This is IF Valdes even makes it that far.

 

I think Valdes would be defensive once Rocky hits him flush. He'd get hurt, then have to either get desperate and return fire, or opt out.

Valdes had fair power, but he could not drop Charles, Satterfield, or Moore, who were much smaller than he was. He also was a bit chinny with a KO loss to Machen, and a 3rd and 4th round KO loss to no names early in his career.

This would not go 15 rounds. I think Marciano stops Valdez in rounds 7-12. Rope a dope or turtle mode will not work with Rocky, as he was a relentless puncher to the head or body with stamina to keep up his pace for 15 rounds.

 

I've said Henry wasn't big but otherwise fits the criteria.

Baker was NY Golden Gloves Champ and InterCity Golden Gloves champ,and he was a good enough puncher to drop Layne.


Walls wasn't skilled?
See below.




Earl Walls also known to some as "The Windsor Walloper" was a smooth, intelligent boxer with a terrific punch in either hand. He made a name for himself with a 90-second knockout of top contender Rex Layne. In 1954 and 1955 there was talk of a match with Rocky Marciano for the world championship but Marciano's promoter was uninterested. Walls was the Canadian Heavyweight Champion when he retired to become a successful real estate agent in the late 1950s boom. His exact date of death in December 1996 is unknown. Walls passed away while playing poker at a charity Casino in Toronto.

• [The Deseret News] Sept 21, 1953 - A Las Vegas boxing syndicate headed by Herman Prujan offered Marciano $250,000 to meet Earl Walls in January of the next year.

 

:good:good

 

Louis's best weight was 12 lbs below that and he was an inch and a half shorter than Valdes ,despite what box rec says.

 

Just on the relative sizes of Louis and Valdes. Fightsrec does give the weights for fights. Most of Valdes' early weights are apparently not available, but here is a comparision of weights of the two men through their career. I will give the year with the age the man turned that year in parenthesis, and his weight and opponents.

Joe Louis

1934 (20) Jack Kracken (debut) 181

1934 (20) Stanley Poreda 194

1934 (20) Lee Ramage 193 (last time Louis is under 195)

1934 (20) Don Barry 200 (first time Louis is at 200)

Nino Valdes

1945 (21) Frederico Maliban 185

Joe Louis

1935 (21) Max Baer 198

1936 (22) Al Ettore 203

1937 (23) Natie Brown 206

"Louis' weight is fairly stable between 198 and 203 through 1941, but generally over 200

1942 (twenty-eight) Buddy Baer 207

Nino Valdes

1952 (twenty-eight) 204 for Sandy McPherson

1953 (29) Matt Daniels 203

1954 (30) Hurricane Jackson 204

1955 (31) Archie Moore 215, Bob Baker 207

Joe Louis

1946 (32) Billy Conn 207, Tami Mauriello 211

1948 (34) Jersey Joe Walcott 213

Nino Valdes

1958 (34) Wayne Bethea 206

1959 (35) Alonzo Johnson 210, Sonny Liston 211

Joe Louis

1951 (37) Rocky Marciano 214
--------------------------------------------------------

Nino Valdes

Heaviest listed weight ever fought--244 (for Charley Powell in which Valdes was stopped in 8 rounds. This weight seens out of line as it is 26 lbs more than he ever weighed in any other fight. Could be a misprint. Anyway, the loss shows he couldn't fight top men at that weight)

Heaviest listed weight in victory--218 for Brian London in his last fight

Joe Louis

Heaviest listed weight--218 for Charles in 1950 in loss. Louis didn't feel he had time to get in top shape for this fight.

Heaviest listed weight in victory--216 for Cesar Brion in 1950.

 

1. Baker was a skilled big man. For sure. But he was not a puncher. I repeat, not a puncher. To make matters worse, he had brittle hands most of his career..everytime he threw a punch his hands hurt. Baker does not fit the criteria. Baker never knocked out anyone good in his career, had a very low KO percentage, and fought Layne when Layne was washed up.

2. Walls was not skilled. He was outboxed by mediocre fighters. Even a 37 year old Joe Louis would have jabbed Walls face off and won a unanimous decision over him. Moore would have easily outboxed him. Walls does not fit the criteria. Walls was a big puncher though.


Joe Louis comes close to fitting the criteria, except he's not young. At least Louis knew what boxing skills were, and even at 37 never got outboxed by mediocre fighters.

 

Numbers don't lie. Wonder what McVea will say to this? great post :good


McVea,

In my opinion Baker, Valdes, Walls were not good enough to share a ring with any version of Joe Louis and would have lost to any version of Louis. Valdes got knocked out in 1 round by Louis. Baker-Louis 51 would have been Louis closest fight.

 

I think a little too much is being made of the whole Valdez thing. Yeah I think he would have been a good person for Marciano to fight, as I've already argued a fair amount myself. but I'm not convinced of a duck. Sometimes timing, ratings, and circumstances just don't make for certain fights to come into fruition.

 

What exactly do you think has been proved here?
I think the thread is about Marciano and the men he did, and didn't fight ,not Joe Louis.

 

Can you explain what footage you have seen of Walls to form your opinion that he was not skilled because others including Box Rec obviously disagree.

This seem familiar ?


"A battle between two of the division's best right hand punchers. Walls at 6'3 200b with fast hands, high intelligence, and a big right hand punch"

 

except Marciano did fight Joe Louis

 

In all that time when exactly did valdes prove he was superior to Baker, Moore and Harold Johnson who all held wins over him? What about other contenders like Walls, Tommy Harrison, Lastarza, satterfeild? Why especially was valdes #1 rating that strong?

Come to think of it during this period valdes beat only neuhaus and Jackson. Jackson only looked fair because he beat Dan bucceroni, well Lastarza had a already beat bucceroni in order to get his shot some time before.

Cokkell beat Lastarza right after Marciano and was British Champion. On paper he had a good record in the division. Before They Fought one another I don't think (on paper at least) Cokkell looked that bad against valdes resume in 1955?