Why did Marciano Choose to defend against Charles than Valdez ?

Once again, any time someone brings up Marciano and Nino Valdes ... the only reason people can give for why the fight didn't happen is: "Well I think Marciano would've beaten Valdes, therefore Weill didn't duck Valdes."

I doesn't matter if you think Marciano wins, just like it doesn't matter if you think Valdes would've won.

The fight didn't happen, because Weill turned down every request to fight Valdes - from all the officials and all the locations clamoring for it - and Weill called Don ****ell and his manager and offered the fight to them.

Nobody blocked the fight except Al Weill. Weill never offered it to Valdes. In fact, the Marciano-****ell fight was a financial loser. They didn't expect it to sell a lot, and it only did half the business they even estimated it might do.

That's what happened. It's all well-documented.

So the question remains why did Al Weill "DUCK" Valdes and sign Marciano to fight ****ell instead?

Was Weil afraid Marciano's nose was more likely to be re-injured and Marciano was therefore more likely to lose? Is that why he avoided the only number-one contender Marciano didn't fight during his reign?

I think Weill "ducked" Valdes and chose ****ell instead because Marciano was coming off a bad nose injury and Don was expected to be an easier fight.

But it's amazing to me how the mere idea of that sends some people on this board into spasms.

They'd rather spend days and weeks talking in circles rather than just admit Valdes was perceived as a "threat" to Marciano's camp.

God forbid.

 

He fought someone called Joe Louis.

 

McVey said Louis best weight was 12 pounds below 214, or 202 pounds.

Its clear that some of Louis' best wins were above 202 pounds.

 

Lastarza was finished after Marciano ruined him.Mathews was a hype job ****ell's other wins were domestic and Euro level. He was a class lhvy but not anything special at heavyweight.

 

Valdes beat Ezzard Charles when Ezzard was the number-one contender. Charles and La Starza were one and two in 1953, after Rocky beat Walcott in their rematch. There was some debate over who - Charles or La Starza - Marciano would fight next. An eliminator between Charles and La Starza was proposed. Before that could happen, Valdes knocked off the top-rated Charles ... so La Starza moved up and got the shot.

After beating the number-one contender Charles, Valdes beat Neuhaus (who I think was ranked #4 at the time) and Jackson (who was ranked #5 at the time they fought). Before Valdes (rated #2 at the time) and Jackson fought, the President of the I.B.C. Jim Norris said the winner of Valdes-Jackson would fight Marciano in September 1954.

When the first MArciano-Charles fight turned out to be closer than people expected, Charles (who was rated #1 going into the first Marciano fight) asked the N.B.A. to be named the "logical" contender so he could get a rematch with Marciano (since logical/mandatory contenders usually got immediate title shots).

The N.B.A. refused Ezzard's request to be named logical contender, but they didn't drop him from number one after his loss. Instead, they kept Charles at number one and Valdes at number two with no logical contender named.

That left the decision up to Marciano's camp as to who they'd fight next. Norris still wanted Valdes (who beat Jackson) to fight Marciano. But Weill picked Charles again.

After Charles lost twice to Marciano, Valdes became the official number-one contender (based on his wins over Charles, Neuhaus and Jackson) ... and the N.B.A. named Valdes the logical/mandatory contender.

Norris kept pushing Weill to set a date for Marciano-Valdes, but Weill kept ignoring the request. Valdes fought a couple more times, won both by knockout, while he waited for his shot.

But Weill offered the fight to ****ell - going against the pattern set thru Rocky's entire reign and going against the wishes of the I.B.C. and the N.B.A.

Moore wasn't rated at all at heavyweight.

The ratings at the start of 1955 – just before Weill signed the Marciano-****ell fight – were:
1. Nino Valdes (logical contender)
2. Don ****ell
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Bob Baker
5. Earl Walls
6. Heinz Neuhaus
7. Jimmy Slade
8. Tommy Jackson
9. Rex Layne
10. Charles Norkus

Archie was the light heavyweight champ. At light heavy, the ratings were:
1. Billy Smith
2. Joey Maxim
3. Harold Johnson
4. Floyd Patterson
5. Paul Andrews
6. Marty Marshall
7. Gerhard Hecht
8. Yolande Pompey
9. Bob Satterfield
10. Willi Hoepner

 

I agree, and that's exactly how it panned out, but who exactly knew all that before Cokkell fought Marciano?

Lastarza and Mathews are good wins. Any other fighter (unbeaten as a heavyweight) getting those wins at that time is going to be taken seriously in 1954-55. Cokkell landed those fights and won them together with his Euro level wins. Remember, Ninos rep did ok with Euro level wins too.

 

The Joe Louis expert rears his head .Want to tell us about all his fights that were fixed by his gangster managers,all the favours he got from crooked refreees? You're a joke.

 

DubbleChin,

True or False..


Had Valdes beaten Moore he would have gotten a title shot against Marciano?

All Valdes had to do was beat a fat 38 year old light heavyweight

 

Both Nino and Cokkell were expected to be easy fights for Marciano ....not just Cokkell!!

The difference was Nino was a journeyman two years earlier losing to a list of respected heavyweight and lightheavyweight contenders. He was known in America, had been seen in New York. Nino was not exciting anyone. ....Neither was Don Cokkell, but at least they could sell him, or at least they thought they could.

There was no list of heavyweights who had beat Cokkell just two years earlier that American fans were not impressed with. Billy Gilium, McBride... the boring fight with James J Parker. It wasn't that much earlier. Fans still remembered.

If Marcianos people wanted a west coast fight they thought Cokkell would sell better there than "former journeyman made good" valdes.

 

****ell wasnt unbeaten at heavyweight he was dropped 5 times by Jimmy Slade and stopped in 4 rds in a fight in which he was described as "a punching bag".

He was ko'd by 15 fight Aaron Wilson in 6rds.


Any lhvy getting12lbs from a middle weight as ****ell did from Randy Turpin,and then being floored 3 times and stopped in 11 rds had no business being inthe ring with the heavyweight champion .

Valdes did a bit more than beat up Euro heavies and washed up ex contenders.
Summerlin
Holman
Dejohn
Charles
Jackson
Carter
Agramonte
Parker
McMurtry
Bethea
Also figure among his victims.

No one gave ****ell a ghost of a chance, just before the fight started ,****ell told John Simpson, his manager ,"no matter what happens don't you ****ing well stop it".
Hardly the words of a confident challenger.

 

I'm going to say false. Because all he had to do was beat Tommy Jackson to get a title shot, according to Jim Norris, and after he knocked out Jackson in two rounds ... Marciano fought two other guys instead.

Why did Marciano fight ****ell instead of Valdes? Was he looking for an easier opponnet?

 

What?

How do you know what fans "remembered" in 1955? Were you an adult and a boxing fan in 1955?

San Francisco wanted Marciano-Valdes. Miami wanted Marciano-Valdes. Las Vegas wanted Marciano-Valdes. Manila wanted Marciano-Valdes. They were all sending Weill offers. The N.B.A. wanted Marciano-Valdes. The I.B.C. wanted Marciano-Valdes.

Who wanted Marciano-****ell again? Oh yeah, Al Weill did. That's it.

And the "fans" showed their displeasure in THAT matchmaking. Weill said 30,000 fans would show up. Half that did. Marciano made half of what he expected, too. The fight was a bust.

The fans spoke. I don't say that because I was there. I say that based on what actually happened.

But if you can post a link showing ****ell was chosen over Valdes in 1955 because Weill said "fans weren't impressed with the Valdes-Bill Gillium fight" ... go right ahead. I'd love to read it.

 

Nobody gave valdes a "ghost of a chance" to beat Marciano.

The loss to Slade and Wilson were prior to Cokkell moving up permanently to heavyweight and before he lost his lightheavyweight title to Turpin, his final fight as a cruiser making weight.

Most of those wins of valdes you listed were after 1955. All fight fans had to go on "at the time" Nino was in line for Marciano was the journeyman defeats to Moore, Baker, Gillium, McBride and Harold johnson versus his wins over Neuhaus, Jackson and Charles. It's not even a 50-50 record against name guys. Throw in the unconvincing wins over McBride and Parker in 1954 and it all looks very shaky for Nino as a good contender.

Before They Fought each other, Valdes and Cokkell in 1954 proberbly did not look any better than the other. Not just on paper, in the ring! Nobody thought either of them stood a chance against Rocky at any time.

 

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Once again, you don't think Valdes would've won, so therefore they didn't duck him.

Aside from the fact that you think Marciano would've won, why did they choose a lower ranked fighter that nobody had any interest in seeing fight for the title, when everyone wanted the Marciano-Valdes fight instead and were sending Weill offers ... even from Manila?

Show us something that says why they chose ****ell over Valdes.

Is it because he would be easier to beat than Valdes?