Who are the top ten heavyweights who never received a lineal title shot?

LOL, I presumed you were self deprecating. I did not think for a second you were calling me an idiot. Indeed it is not often you can debate strongly on the Internet with someone with such good manners.

 

I would not have a clue mate. I am not that comfortable finding 'facts' on the Internet.

 

I do not get where you are coming from? It could not be much clearer. If you do not trust boxrec (which does indeed have flaws in their data), then I suggest the BBB of C Boxing yearbooks. Particularly useful as it clearly shows the strongest claims in bold.

 

Are we just going around in circles here? Lineage is very clear, once created you cannot pick and choose. I know it frustrates people that, that can lead to bizarre unhelpful situations, but that is the quirk of lineage. It seems a bit sad that people want to rip everything up and start again when things do not go as they want.

Do not get me wrong Lineage is only a tool, a tradition of the sport. A fun one, but as I have shown it is often not a true measure of who is best in a division.

 

There's a bit of a problem with this lineage, TB.

The Middle weight title was not at stake for most or all of the chain you cite.
The last time it's up for grabs is Leonard/Hagler.

There's more to maintaining the lineage than simply having both guys weigh in under the MW limit.

In parts of your chain, you have the Linear MW title being contested by guys who, in their minds, were fighting for a 154 lb title, and therefore were restricted to 154. That's a bit of an absurd condition to impose on a fight for the linear MW title.

The Delahoya-Castillejo fight was contested at Light MW, both men weighing in at 154 with only the WBC LIght MW title at stake.

Oscar had yet to (questionably) win any portion of the MW title.

And Castillejo never held any portion of the MW title, just the Light MW title, which he had held, on and off since winning it from Mullings.

Mullings never owned any part of the MW title either. He had never fought at MW and had only picked up the Light MW (154 lb) title from Norris.

Norris did not own a part of the MW title as he had fought Leonard at Light MW, or as the WBC then termed it, super-welterweight.


Thus, having Oscar as the Linear (or lineal) MW champion at any stage, requires an alternative reality.







When the accepted (linear/lineal) champ retires with the distinction intact, that particular piece of linearity ends there.

Rocky Marciano, Lennox Lewis...

A new accepted champion has to be found to 'restart' the linearity.

The term Linear is a little off as the line is broken upon retirement. The reason it was in use BEFORE the retirement was that it refered to line, the man who beat the man... Braddock..Louis...Charles...Walcott...Marciano...END !

But a new line was accepted with Patterson defeating Moore. And so, while technically, Patterson wasn't the Linear champion, he was (and IS) accepted as the beginning of a new line, so that Liston became the Linear champ, having a direct line to Patterson.


Likewise, with Wlad.

No clear line for a time after Lennox.

Wlad had a claim of sorts at various points, notably after Chagaev.

But all doubt was removed when the number 1 and the number 2 HWs fought (Wlad - Pov).

After that, he became accepted as the new Champion, and if/when someone defeats him, they will become the Linear HW champion.

 

Just noticed this...








Self-deprecating ???

 

No way in hell!

Oscar DeLaHoya won the WBO MW world title belt by beating Felix Sturm (in 2004) who beat Hector Javier Velazco (who was the interim WBO champ). Harry Simon was the WBO champ before Velazco. Simon beat Hacine Cherifi for the vacant interim WBO belt then won true recognition of the title when he beat Armand Krajnc who had vacated the title but then received the title back. This is no kind of lineage to any "lineal" MW World Title.

Hopkins won the vacant IBF belt by beating Mercado (which Jones had vacated). Jones won the vacant IBF title by beating Hopkins (which Toney had vacated). Toney beat F. Tate who had won the vacant title after it was vacated by Marvin Fvcking Hagler.

Hopkins won the WBC belt by beating Holmes who beat Q. Taylor (his first reign), who beat Julian Jackson, who won the vacant title (which was vacated by McClellan). McClellan beat Jackson who won the vacant title by beating Graham (the title had been vacated by Duran, who beat Barkley, who beat Hearns). Hearns had won the vacant title after Leonard had vacated... who had defeated Marvin Fvcking Hagler!

Hopkins won the WBA belt by beating Trinidad, who beat Joppy, who beat Takehara (his first reign), who beat J. Castro, who beat J.D. Jackson, who beat R. Johnson. Jackson beat S. Collins for the vacant title (vacated by McCallum). McCallum beat Graham for the vacant title (vacated by Kalambay). Kalambay beat Barkley for the vacant title which had been stripped from Marvin Fvcking Hagler!

 

Ok, just for shlts and giggles... Hagler loses to Leonard, Leonard loses to Norris (at 154 mind you), Norris loses to S. Brown (who loses to Norris in a rematch), Norris loses to Santana (who loses to Norris in their 3rd bout), Norris loses to Mullings... do I really need to continue? It's stupid and wrong. Anyway, Mullings lost to Castellijo who lost to Oscar (at 154!). Mosley beat Oscar for the 2nd time before Oscar fought Sturm or Hopkins! So then Wright beat Sugar Shane, then Hopkins beat Wright in 2007 and all things were right in the universe!

 

LOL, McGrain is a messy pup.

 

Again like McGrain on what linear means, you cannot change something because you do not like it, or if it seemingly does not make much sense.

There is no where in boxing to get a consensus. So if you wish to use linear to recognize who you consider champion then you need to put up with the quirks.

If I played Devil's Advocate, I would suggest that Michael Nunn had a claim at the Middleweight lineage after beating Kalambay, and as Leonard was fighting but not weighing at Super Middleweight there could be a case for linear being set then.

As for a new line not being 'technically' linear, that is simply not so. If it were then the UK would not have a Queen.

When a line is broken there is consensus that will create a new line.

 

Well the beauty of linear is it can go from absurd to sublime. In the same way as Foreman's 1990's linear led to Lewis; the Middleweight linear that is now in its 38th year, has Cotto as champ. Although not as strong a claim as Lennox's, I think most would still have Cotto as either the best or second best Middleweight of the moment.