On the 3rd of July1905 Jack Root fought Johnson conqueror Marvin Hart for the title left vacant by Jeffries retirement,supposing Hart had rematched Johnson for the vacant title instead of Root? And,supposing further that Johnson had gained revenge,and become champion? Would Jeffries have felt obliged to come out of retirement to challenge Johnson and regain the title for the"White Race" and ,if he had what would have been the result ? Jeffries had last fought on the 26th ofAugust 1904, that' s 11months out. Give him a further few months to train.Would he at 30 , have beaten Johnson and become the first man to regain the title 55 years before Patterson turned the trick? And supposing he had done,what would be his status be as all time great heavyweight champion today? That' s a lot of supposing but, the ramifications of those to fights having happened open unprecedented possibilities for heavyweight boxing history,imo.
A lot of assumptions as you say. Johnson probably beats Hart in a rematch, once he knows his style. Jeffries would undoubtedly have been draged out of retirment, and he might not have gone back very far by then. Quite possibly he beats Johnson. In this scenario Jeffries is potential GOAT material. Johnson probably outlasts him anyway, and becomes champion again.
The big what if fight, if I factor the Climate of the time I would pick Jeffries W20 by debatable decision. I don't think Johnson could stop that version of Big Jeff and while stylistically I favor Johnson, I could see Jeffries' aggression taking the fight. Johnson would have to be spectacular to not get jobbed and I don't think he would be able to separate himself by that wide of a margin to keep the title. A title no one wanted him to have. Much like the Hart Johnson result is still disputed today, I could see this result eerily similar. While I feel Johnson would def put up a more spirited fight down the stretch with the title on the line I also feel Jeffries is far superior to Hart and these new dimensions to this fight would likely cancel each other out. Truly a difficult fight to predict. I think Johnson just has a more difficult time being allowed the W even if he did deserve it.
I'll add another possible glitch. The Hart-Root fight was a finish fight, that version of Hart was a tough, fit fighter who could take punishment and keep coming. The fight was fought outside in the open, Hart stands a big chance in those circumstances.
Root looked good on film he just wasn't very big. Johnson did not take re-matches with his losses to Choynski, Hart, or draw with O'Brien where some primary sources felt he lost. He did not give Gunboat Smith, who for a while was the best " white hope " a title shot perhaps because Smith knocked him silly in a 4 round exhibition match in Johnson's prime of 1909. If a promoter put up enough money for Hart to re-match Johnson, I think Hart would take the re-match. What a fighter says and does can change once a big guaranteed purse is up. If there was a re-match, I favor Hart via decision as he knows Johnson to quote the ref " dogged it " in the 2nd half of the fight. IF Johnson won the re-match and Jeffries was offered a Reno like purse in 1905, Jeffries would likely agree and defeat Johnson to regain the title. Politics outside the ring dictate history within it. For example Burns was initially supposed to have fought Sam McVey. If Sam McVey wins, he might not have used the color line.
Hart would never agree to a rematch with Johnson and publicly stated it. Hart was comfortably beaten by Burns over 20rds, Burns did the same thing to O Brien, Burns was outclassed and thoroughly thrashed by Johnson. There was no demand for a Johnson v O Brien rematch as the newspapers emphasised. A month after his no decision with Johnson, O Brien was kod in 3rds by Stan Ketchel whom Johnson toyed with before koing him for several minutes. After his Johnson fight O Brien has 9 more fights winning 3 and losing 6, 2 to Al Kaufman whom Johnson played with and carried ,1 to Sam Langford whom Johnson gave a bad beating. He was also beaten by Harry Ramsey 6-3-1 and Ben Koch 1-0-0.Who would have paid to see him challenge Johnson again? Choynski beat Johnson in 1901,after this fight Johnson steadliy gained weight adding about 30lbs by the time he was champ 7 years later. Choynski's form after beating Johnson disqualified him from any serious thoughts of a rematch. Choynski was kod in 1rd by Mddleweight Kid Carter a year after he beat the green Johnson page: 1 | 2 ยป dateLbopponentLbW-L-Dlast 6location1904-11-21 This content is protected Jack Williams This content is protected - This content is protected - This content is protected Washington S.C., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWNWS66 Newspaper decision iin favor of Choynski provided by Philadelphia Item. 1904-01-19 This content is protected Kid Carter This content is protected - This content is protected - This content is protected Criterion A.C., Boston, Massachusetts, USALKO115 Both Carter and Choynski were arrested after this fight by the Boston Police in order "to stop all boxing exhibitions and prize fighting in Boston." (Durango Democrat) 1903-11-16 This content is protected Marvin Hart This content is protected - This content is protected - This content is protected Washington S.C., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USALNWS66 "Marvin Hart and Joe Choyinski (sic) went six rounds to a draw at the Washington Sporting Club. The bout was a fast one, both men taking severe punishment and both bleeding freely at the close." (Daily Herald) The Philadelphia Item reported that Hart was the winner. 1903-08-07 This content is protected Nick Burley This content is protected - This content is protected - This content is protected D.A.A.A. Amphitheater , Dawson City, Yukon Territory, CanadaWKO710 The Yukon Sun, August 8, 1903. 1903-06-25 This content is protected Nick Burley This content is protected - This content is protected - This content is protected D.A.A.A. Rink, Dawson City, Yukon Territory, CanadaLKO210 time: 2:29 | referee: Joe Boyle The Yukon Sun, June 26, 1903. 1903-03-30 This content is protected Philadelphia Jack O'Brien This content is protected - This content is protected - This content is protected Washington S.C., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USALNWS66 "Jack O'Brien,of this city, last night outpointed Joe Choynski in a six-round bout. Choynski was no match for O'Brien, whose failure to score a knockout was due to the lack of force behind his blows. Choynski started well, but appeared to lose heart under O'Brien unceasing rain of left-hand jabs. From the second until the last round, Choynski's only object seemed to be to stay the limit. The third and fourth rounds were particularly tame and the referee warned the men. In the sixth O'Brien was more aggressive and subjected his opponent to a severe drubbing, but his jabs and punches lacked the power to put Choysnki to sleep." (Fort Wayne News) 1903-01-26 This content is protected Peter Maher This content is protected - This content is protected - This content is protected Washington S.C., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWKO26 Result from the Philadelphia Item. 1902-12-01 This content is protected Frank Childs This content is protected - This content is protected - This content is protected Lyceum A.C., Chicago, Illinois, USAWPTS66 1902-09-29 This content is protected Philadelphia Jack O'Brien This content is protected - This content is protected - This content is protected America A.C., Chicago, Illinois, USALPTS66 1902-05-02 This content is protected Al Weinig This content is protected - This content is protected - This content is protected Music Hall, Louisville, Kentucky, USAWKO620 referee: George Siler Choynski was groggy in the third round and was saved by the bell; it appeared Weining was winning going into the sixth round. Weining was floored twice in the sixth being being knocked out. He was "out" for several minutes. Los Angeles Times 1902-03-24 This content is protected 165Kid Carter165 This content is protected - This content is protected - This content is protected American A.C., Chicago, Illinois, USA GunBoat Smith was not a professional fighter when he sparred with Johnson his brief time as a contender was thoroughly squashed when 19 years old 170lbsCarpentier beat him, dropping him along the way.
Once again, what a fighter says before the money is up, and what he says when a big purse is offered can be different things. Could you imagine is a middle got the better of Holy, Tyson, Lewis or Wlad? Johnson should have wanted to clear his name. The same can be said for his dubious draw with Battling Jim in 1913. Please stop. Smith not only cold clocked Johnson in 1909, he was in fact the #1 or #2 white hope with wins over Willard, Ross. Flynn and Moran, whom Johnson gave title shots to. Hmmmmm.... He also had a win over Langford who Johnson avoided as champion. I know you love to quote old books, some of which are full of mistakes. " In this Corner " Smith was quoted " and Johnson never forgot it " referring to when they fought a 4 round ex match. Johnson resume would look much better with Smith on it had they fought in 1912, 1913, or 1914.
I see there is no chance you confining yourself to the questions I raised in the thread. I'll spell it out to you. Jack O Brien. After O Brien's 6 round NO DECISION bout with Johnson , he was kod in 3rds in his very next fight by middleweight Stan Ketchel. O Brien then just about lasted out the 6rds against Jim Flynn ,[a man Johnson thrashed twice ,]who was finishing like a train as O Brien faded. Jack then beat no hoper Charley Stevenson over 6rds. Lost two fights back to back with Al Kaufman, a man Johnson toyed with. Beat Mike Shreck . Shreck had ben kod in 1 round by Langford 6 moths earlier ,and after losing to O Brien, lost his next fight to Tom Overby 2-2-7 being kod in 3rds. O Brien was then badly beaten by Langford in 5 rds, having to be helped to his corner. Beaten by no hoper Harry Ramsey 6-3-1 ,and had his last fight against Ben Koch 1-0-0 losing that. If he had been given a title fight with Johnson off the back of those performances there would have been a public outcry. Joe Choynski . After beating Johnson in 1901 Choynski beat pork and beaner Wild Bill Hanrahan9-11-2 ,was kod in one round by middleweight Kid Carter, beat Al Weinig in a peculiar fight in which he several times looked ready to go. next up was Jack O Brien he beat Choynski comfortably over 6rds.Choynski won over Johnson victim Frank Childs and beat alcoholic washed up Peter Maher. Choynski was then kod by ham and egger Nick Burley in 2rds reversed that in 7rds, was beaten by Marvin Hart over 6rds kos again by Kid Carter and yes it was the 1st round once more, then close out his career with a win over nobody Jack Williams in Shrot Choynski was fading so fast he was almost dissapearing ,meanwhile Johnson was getting bigger and betterwht would he be leery of fighting a Choynski who was twice kod in a single round by a middleweight? A Choynski who never beat a class man after 1901. Gunboat Smith did not cold **** Johnson,[it is **** not clocked btw ] according to his own taped interview he put him halfway through the ropes in a sparring session.I dont know how many times you need to be told this? And I'll ask you once again, does a sparring partner knocking down his champion employer qualify him for a title fight? Because if it does.Vitali Klitschko should have given title shots to Raphael Butler and Travis Walker, Rocky Marciano should have defended against Toxie Hall,and Mike Tyson should have given Greg Page a title chance. Battling Jim Johnson could not beat a grossly overweight Johnson when Johnson had a broken arm for seven of the ten rounds they boxed ,what is the basis for expecting him to do better against a champion fighting with two good arms? Battling Jim was a warm up for the Moran fight, a warm up sorely needed because the champion had been out of the ring for a year and a half. Your points are so biased and subjective and have been so throughly destroyed so many times I don't think I'll reply next time you raise them , which after a suitable interval you undoubtedly will. Once again you've sidetracked somebodies thread with your pathological bigoted ,hatred,and once again you have been exposed and demolished. Same **** different day.atsch
