Ali v Foreman eliminator to fight Frazier 1972, does it change history?

What do you think would happen? Does it change the course of history?

 

Hypotheticaley, what if Ali still beat young Foreman in an eliminator? Foreman and Ali were #1 and #2 to Frazier. The timing of events could have prevented a lot of things from happening. Perhaps not for the best either.

Looking back, I don't think many people realise Foreman might never had been champion had he been made to fight Ali in an eliminator to challenge Frazier.

Suppose Ali beat Foreman right after say Quarry, Ali might not have needed to take the unknown Norton in a "stay busy" fight because he would have challenged Frazier in Foremans place Jan 1973.

After losing to Ali in an eliminator, Foreman still would have beat Norton and Lyle but would be challenging Ali at a later date....and only provided he not bump into Jimmy Young beforehand.

The whole order of things and how we regard Foreman and Norton would be completely different. If things worked out that way both Foreman and Norton would still be as great as we now know they were, we just would not know it.

Makes you wonder, and then realise who there is in the shadows waiting to shine.

 

Intriguing one !

Foreman would have been the underdog here,just as he was against Joe Frazier in Jamaica early the following year,so some may ask whether Muhammad Ali would have underestimated him and suffered an upset like he did in the first Ken Norton fight. My answer to that would be an emphatic NO for two reasons. One - As this would have been an eliminator for Frazier's title,Ali would have been totally focused. Two - In their real fight,it was forever proved that Muhammad did n't find George as hard a problem to fathom as he did Ken. Ali wins the eliminator against Foreman.


How would boxing history have been changed ?

Ali wins the championship rematch with Frazier in a similar way that he did in their non title 1974 fight albeit in a 15 rounder. He may well have lost to Norton in one of his defences before winning the title back again.

After the Ali defeat,Foreman wins a few more fights before,maybe,losing to Jimmy Young.


Quite a few permutations to this one,though.

 

in 1972 ali was still too rusty for foreman

 

In my opinion,Ali had shaken off the ringrust. He was sharp as a razor in his second fight with Jerry Quarry.

 

Yes I also feel Ali would have been focused enough to beat Foreman in 1972 because Ali had a busy time, getting good rounds against Chuvalo, Ellis, Mac foster and was razor sharp for Quarry the second time. An eliminator after that point could have prevented Ali going stale with the extra fights he took up to the 1973 Norton fights because the foreman eliminator would have been the last fight of the year. This would bypass Ali's taxing "stay busy fights" with Al blue Lewis, Patterson, Bob foster and Joe Bugner because he would have only took the Foreman eliminator between Quarry and the January 1973 title shot at Frazier.

Foreman was relatively unprepared in 1972 by comparison despite his high ranking. It does seem incredible that George was manuvered around so many rated fighters on his way to #1 contender to Joe Frazier, I still don't think George was entirely seasoned enough and warranted such a rating without facing more names like Bonnavena, Quarry, Ellis, Ali, Terrell and Patterson.

Foreman got all the way to #1 and all he had beat was Boone Kirkman and George Chuvalo!

As for Norton I think without fighting Ali twice in 1973 I wonder what would have happened to him since it was those fights that launched him. The 1973 ratings included Bonavena, SHavers and Bugner. If he chose SHavers in 1973, Ken could have went further down the ratings.

Remember those Ali fights only happenned because Ali was not champion but if Ali beats Foreman in 1972 then Frazier in 1973 there is no saying he takes Norton until 1976 because without the 1973 Ali fights it won't be until 1975 that Ken established himself with the Quarry and Stander wins.

 

Well, Ali as champion fought Wepner, Evangelista, Coopman, etc. Who is to say he won't fight Norton as just another soft touch of a title defense in this scenario?

Then Norton beats Ali, and perhaps Norton fights Foreman for his first title defense who just beaten Frazier in an eliminator, and history is back on track!

 

How does Ali-Foreman in 1972 play out?

No Zaire, no heat, no ropes, no postponement

Foreman wouldnt seem the invincible force that he was regarded as as champion. Would both fighters approach the fight differently? Was Foreman seasoned enough? Was Ali ready after the layoff and Frazier loss

History as we know it post theoretical fight?

Foreman imploded mentally following his Ali fight..does this happen after losing in an eliminator or does that hinge on how he lost? Once again without the pedestal he was on and the nature of Zaire I imagine he doesnt mentally fold

Ali would win I think, but does that mean he beats Frazier? Frazier certainly would train hard for Ali and wouldnt show up to a huge title rematch of the century looking like he did vs Foreman...Take the Foreman beating and all the damage that did out of the equation...What if Frazier fought fight 2 more like he did in the 3rd fight, would that fight be a foregone conclusion?

Lots and lots to consider I feel, not an easy scenario.

 

Good summary. It does make you wonder :think

 

That's true, you could not entirely rule that out I suppose.

I just think 1973 was Norton's year to step up, if he had not fought Ali he would have needed a high profile name to use as a spring board to be in contention in place of Wepner. Would he get past Ron Lyle, Frazier and Shavers? The Stander and Quarry wins came later.

 

Ali would still beat Foreman, and then take Frazier in the rematch.

 

That's how I see it. George, whether in 1974 Kinshasa or MSG or the Astrodome in 1972, simply didn't have the hand speed, experience or stamina to pull it off. If his right hand had fractured Ali's jaw like Norton's did, Foreman still would have lost the decision. Ken could go the limit, ironically because of somewhat limited power, but the slowish George would have to somehow get the job done quickly against a veteran opponent nobody did the job quickly against. (I think the Astrodome would have a real shot at hosting Ali-Foreman in 1972. Muhammad had already dealt with the Big Cat, Terrell, Ellis and Buster Mathis down there, while George could have a seventh fight in Houston at a venue that was not Sam Houston Coliseum.)

Frazier's likewise not pulling off a second successful title defense against Ali. He'd won the FOTC, and it's obvious his name was made and the same fire wasn't there. Muhammad could pump himself up and promote Frazier after his post FOTC wins during the remnant of Joe's reign. (Hell, while resting on his knee after Manila, he even talked about defending against Norton and Foreman.)

Smoke, after Daniels and Stander, merely said whoever came up with the money could get a shot. The obvious answer to the money issue was Ali, but Frazier wouldn't pay him lip service by any name. (In 2005's "Box Like the Pros," Joe tells his readers that "The Butterfly" was the name he had settled on using as of ten years ago.)

Incidentally, extremely mindful of the fact he had literally been given the WBC HW Title in a smoke filled room, Norton said in an interview that he wanted to establish himself by defending that belt every month and a half. We now know he was not even going to get past the winner of the Holmes-Shavers I eliminator one week later, but again, Ken was highly motivated as a newly crowned titleholder in a way Frazier was definitely not following the FOTC.

 

****

 

If he had won, Ali would have challenged Frazier, the big question is whether Frazier would have accepted that challenge?
The way events actually unfolded ,he sure didn't appear in any hurry to resume hostilities!

 

Here's the problem with that scenario. Shavers hit Muhammad with a number of clean shots which according to Ali were far harder than anything Foreman hit him with in Kinshasa, yet Earnie himself has stated a number of times that Muhammad was the rightful winner of that decision.

George can't box with Ali in mid ring for ten, 12 rounds, or the championship distance like he did against the significantly shorter and smaller Peralta and win a decision. Muhammad is still much the faster and straighter puncher who optimizes his reach better, and would always have much more experience going longer distances.

Foreman did not throw straight or fast punches, and Ali's lumberjack type developed woodcutting tensile strength and muscular endurance was a match for George's own genetic physical strength in Africa, especially when Muhammad was able to use his height and reach to effectively shove Foreman back with considerable force when Ali was braced against the corners and ropes. (I wonder how many viewers of that bout were able to discern that.

Jimmy Young didn't have the height and reach to out-muscle George with that quick and subtle trick, one of Muhammad's best "smoke and mirrors" tactics in the jungle, fooling Foreman into thinking Ali was even stronger than he truly was. Muhammad got Archimedes pushing from behind him in that one against his powerful opponent.) Remember, Ali had been developing and strengthening his muscles and body with boxing training for 20 years at the time of Kinshasa, starting with Joe Martin and Fred Stoner, since George was four years old.

If it becomes a boxing and punching contest in 1972, especially in ring center, the slower, defensively deficient and less experienced GF who did not throw straight punches and preferred mid range combat to long range boxing is in a lousy situation as I see it. If he doesn't get tired or have swollen eyes impair his vision, George might have his moments, but this would still be a pretty lopsided decision for Ali at the end if this one's a matter of speed, seasoning, stamina and skill, particularly if Foreman begins over-pacing himself when he realizes he can't knock Muhammad out.

Ali won the first several rounds of Norton II, doing all the punching while dancing around as Ken just followed without even trying to pull the trigger. George likewise isn't going to be pitching unless he has a chance to land. Boxing's a matter of hitting without being hit, and that hugely favors Muhammad in 1972. Frazier could hustle forward quickly and repeatedly bury that hook underneath.

We only see George go underneath against taller punchers who could hurt him, specifically O'Halloran and C00ney, but he normally fought tall. (Even Ali went under and to the body a few times on George, also on the upright Big Cat, Terrell, Blue Lewis, Bugner, and Holmes in a bad situation where he was enervated by Thyrolar abuse. Norton was one guy who it appears was a fraction of an inch taller when they were standing face to face, but always lowered himself into that wide crab stance when competing against Ali.)