Ali, Frazier and Foreman: What do they do against Lennox Lewis?

I might have to re watch that fight. Back in the day I regarded it a poor fight but my assessment of poor fights is lower these days. By today's standards it could go down as a fairly good fight.

At the time I felt I had never seen a champion win so widely yet do so little. This was before the klitschkos era mind. Back then I thought it looked like a sparring session.

Lennox felt a win was a win and there was no point taking risks in order to look good. Tua allowed 12 rounds of practice for Lennox yet Lewis did not look happy punching down. I remember thinking Tua showed enough chin to come again provided he learn to shut down a ring. The training Tua did for Lewis did not include watching Frazier v Ali as homework. Lewis was Wiley enough to feint him out of position but still allowed lots of room for low rushes but Tua never took those chances. Tua spent too much time thinking about counters. I don't think Tua looked clever enough to grasp a situation at that level. I was left wondering that if Tyson could ever get focussed again he might beat Lewis.

On reflection Tua was poor. He wasted that opportunity. A prime Frazier would have took those chances and worked a 35 year old Lennox right through the two minutes rest Tua allowed Lewis each round.

 

An unfocused and ill-prepared Lennox Lewis had some lack luster outings. He didn't look sharp and struggled against the likes of Vitaly Klitschjo and Ray Mercer. He was shocked by Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman.

The men who defeated Lewis when he hadn't prepared properly and had the misfortune of facing Lewis a second time paid a terrible price. Rahman almost had his head literally taken off and McCall was reduced to crying like a schoolgirl in the ring. Geeze, Oliver, save that stuff for the privacy of the dressing room next time okay?! Lewis elected to retire instead of facing Klitschko again so we don't know what would have happened there. Mercer, with his granite chin and decent jab, might have still given Lewis a tough fight regardless. Mercer could really fight in his prime.

Because of his formidable size, supreme athleticism, brutal power, huge boxing IQ (high IQ in and out of the ring) Lewis is going to be a HUGE problem for any fighter in the history of the sport to defeat. Ali, Foreman and Frazier are no exceptions.


Frazier almost needs to belong to a lower weight class than modern giants like Lennox. Can anyone picture a 5'11.5" pressure fighter, weighing about 205-212lbs. at his best, taking down the 6'5" 245lbs. British giant? Me neither. This is a physical mismatch. Lewis fights naturally careful but he'll have Frazier coming right at him. Frazier is also a slow starter. It is hard for anyone to keep Frazier down. Lewis is one of the few who would be able to do it.

Lewis KO 3 Frazier


Ali is more difficult assignment. He has speed but not the kind of punching power that would be reason for pause for someone like Lennox. Lennox is not a gambler by nature but he could afford to be and would probably need to be to catch Ali. Ali could hurt Lewis with an accumulation of blows but by doing so puts himself in the danger zone. Lewis' laser guided missile of a right hand can put any man to sleep if it lands enough times, even one time actually. Ali would of course know this and fight accordingly. Since there basically two careers for Ali I'll pick like this.

First career (1960-67') Ali edges Lewis by a razor-close split decision staying away from the big man who for some reason obliges Ali with a chess match instead of pursuing him and cutting off the ring.

Second career (1970-78') I don't count the years 1980-81' because that wasn't Ali in there. At least the Ali we know and remembered. I would once again choose by decision pre-Manilla by the slightest of margins. Post Manilla Lennox wins. Possibly even stops Ali inside the distance.


Foreman: In his first career Foreman would be dangerous in the early rounds. His technique is sloppy though and Lewis will capitalize on this. Also, remember that Foreman looked so huge and muscular next to men he was fighting especially in his first incarnation. Foreman went about 6'3" weighing 218-230lbs. How he grew to 6'4" in his second career is anyone's guess. Lewis was 6'5" and anywhere from 245-250lbs. in shape. Yes, Lennox is the bigger and possibly even stronger man. He matches Foreman in punching power and is a better boxer with much less sloppy technique. The wild card for Foreman is he can try to turn the fight into a shootout and catch Lewis with his heavy artillery. I favor Lewis kayoing a tired and battered Foreman in the mid-late rounds.

Lewis KO 7 Foreman


Foreman's second career is not even worth taking about against Lennox. Even he would admit he would not have had much of a shot to win. Yes, I know about the Rahman and McCall fights. Lewis will be up for this fight and deadly serious about it. This spells Foreman's downfall. Do you think Foreman, who absorbed considerable punishment against Alex Stewart and Michael Moorer but still won both these fights could survive a Lewis hiding and come back to win? I didn't think so.

Lewis KO 10 Foreman. Foreman, with his more patient and intelligent approach to fighting ironically takes Lewis into deeper waters in his second career but still doesn't hear the final bell.

 

I thought Lewis adapted to punching down rather easily and the UK commentary agreed.Tua had reasonably quick hands but slow feet and poor footwork all he has ever shown me is a big left hook and a good chin.
He was outboxed by Fres Oquendo for long periods but as Oquendo lacked the punch to make him cautious he kept advancing until he landed the pay off punch.Lewis 's stamina at 35 against a prime Frazier would not be a factor because Frazier would be,"in it to win it", he would ship too much punishment coming in and be manacled like a baby in close by the relatively huge Lewis. Either retired on his stool his face swollen like a man whose been attacked by bees or kod, Frazier would not see the 6th rd imo.

 

I think you are getting carried away with Lewis's natural size. Lewis was never over 238lb as an unbeaten fighter. As low as 224lb even. His best performance was against Ruddock. He was twenty pounds lighter than the 250lb "in shape" you think he was at his best. There was a lot of artificial weight on heavyweights since the 1990s.

 

Lewis only has a chance V Frazier.

 

Yes, I see your point about Tua being cautious about Lewis's power. Tua lacked the confidence to take the initiative and use the right tactics. Opting to stay in a no man's land against a fighter who outreached him. Frazier could have used the "right tactics" but walked right onto something. However McCall was able to come up and under forcing and rushing Lewis into making that opening he found. Frazier could be a 50-50 fight for Lewis. I would back Frazier with a small wager because of get caught. Another thing is Joe keeps getting up but Lennox doesn't.

 

Lewis would be very competitive with all of them.
It's not so much the size, but that he brought skill, size, decent smarts and power. Very good overall package.

I think on a technical level, he and Ali would play a game of cat & mouse. It would be an interesting fight to watch from a technical perspective. One of Lewis' biggest weapons - the uppercut - would be the hardest punch for him to land. This is going to be an outside fight, a battle of jabs and wits.

Foreman would make things interesting because he has the chin, heart and of course the power to make life tough for Lewis. On the other hand, Lewis has the tools to make life tough for George too. I see Lewis trying to keep the fight on the outside, trying to wear the hittable Foreman out.
Where things get interesting is when George gets hit hard for the first time, because he tended to throw any fight plan out the window and fight back very aggressively when tagged by a punch that rocked him. It could well end up being a Lewis-Mercer type of fight.
But George would have to be a little more careful than normal because the rangy Lewis has the capacity to put some big hurt on him with that booming right hand.

Joe? I'm a little less confident about his chances than some. I just worry about Lewis being able to time him with uppercuts when Joe gets inside, and being able to outbox him at a distance. For me Frazier will have an uphill battle here.

I'd say Ali has a decent to good chance against Lewis, Foreman a decent chance, and Joe less-than-decent chance.
Ali a slight favourite, George 50/50 and Joe the underdog.

 

The punch I remember the most was a big right hand in the 9th. Tua definitely felt it, although he showed no clear outward signs of distress. I remember Lewis landing some big ones earlier on a well, probably to check Tua's chin (which was concrete) and get his respect early.

Lewis' power and range kept Tua from being too adventurous pretty much the whole fight.

 

He may well be, but then again don't you think it is somewhat understandable? Lewis brings a formidable package here, and Frazier never fought a guy with that combination of size, power, range and boxing ability in one package.

To be honest, I don't see Lewis needing to fight off the back foot. Why? He would want to boss center ring and land hard shots on Joe, and keep him off with the jab and hold on when Joe gets too close, as well as throw uppercuts when the situation calls for it.
I think Lewis is one of the few who has the punching ability to keep Joe at bay, much like he did with Tua.

 

Tua lacked serious imagination and initiative. He was not in Fraziers class.

What about the question of pace? Frazier rushing Lewis could create openings for Joe.

Lewis liked time and space. He needed to rest part of a round. Frazier won't let him have time, space or time to rest. I think he deserves a fair chance here.

 

I'm one of those guys that tends to underrate Joe, so maybe I'm just not seeing it.

I think pace is only an issue if Joe can dictate the pace. I'm not sure he can. Rushing Lewis is fine and well, but he going to catch some big heat coming in. People tend to talk of Lewis' right hand, but he had a solid left hook as well.

It was actually that punch that undid Morrison, a noted left hooker. I was impressed with Lewis there, because he showed that he can out-hook a noted hooker, and also bring his right uppercut into play without favouring either hand.
It was an excellent performance. I'm not comparing Tommy and Joe, but the taller Lewis dominated Tommy from the outside and hit him with short, jolting hooks and uppercuts inside.

I agree Tua is not in Joe's class...but the problems Tua had getting in would apply to Joe too, possibly to a lesser extent, but they'd still be there. And he didn't have Tua's chin, to be fair.

 

Lewis took a flush left hook from Tua in I think he 6th round ,he wasn't wobbled.Frazier would have to hit him all night and his own chin and facial tissue would not be able to weather the return fire.

Joe keeps getting knocked down, Lewis doesn't.

 

I think Lewis is more likely to go 2-1 than 1-2 here. Frazier would be his easiest match. Foreman is dangerous early, but I think Lewis would get to him in the mid to late rounds.

Ali is his toughest match, though it would be tough on Ali as well as Lewis size, and skills would make Ali pay for his technical mistakes. Pulling back can work vs someone shorter than you with less reach. That is not Lennox.

In addition, Ali liked to counter punch. He might be forced to lead more often vs. Lennox. As for Lewis, his biggest weakness is vs the right hand, and in some casses vs top level jabbers. The Mercer and Klitschko fight showed Lewis could have trouble with jabbers. Ali's jab was very quick, and he had a solid right hand.

I'll go with Ali 9-6 on points.

 

It wouldn't go long enough for stamina to be an issue.