Which Three Lightweights Have Best Chance With Duran

^^^ Seems obvious enough to me.. but I guess others don't see it that way.

 

Jab. We can say that Pernell had the better jab. But, I would add that it is only because he used his more. Not because it was more effective.

Duran never to my mind dominated a fight with just his jab. But there plenty of fights were his jab was superior to his opponents. Hiroshi Kobayashi, Dejesus III , Palomino, Leonard I, Cuevas, Moore, and Barkley off the top of my head. I think his jab in those fights were superior than to his opponent. He jab opened up his other punches, created distance and space, and got the timing of the other fighter. Pernell's was did the same thing but it was basically his best punch and the safest punch. Duran was not playing it safe.

Pernell never rendered another fighter useless by just using his jab like Wright did with Trinidad, hence the reason Pernell had to dip and dodge everything that his opponent threw, so no Pernell did not DOMINATE any fighter with his jab. He had the superior jab, just like Duran. But Duran's was against better competition.

Pernell had better defense because he got hit less but, it was not more effective than Duran's defense.

Pernell would make you miss, miss, and miss, and miss, and then he would hit you with one punch. Duran would make you miss, then hit you, hit you, hit you, hit you. I think slipping one punch and hit the opponent with powerful combinations is more effective than just slipping punches and landing a jab in return. Both are great but Duran's defense is more effective because of the effect it has on his opponent. The effect is more damaging than the net effect of Pernell's defense.

Football metaphor? Duran's defense is a like a swarming, aggressive defense lead by Lawrence Taylor that forces turnovers and keeps the other teams offense in fear.

 

Okay, well at least that was something positive.

Pea did dominate fights with his jab alone... Just watch the Nelson fight for example... He dominated that fight almost with his jab alone. Every other fight Pea was in.. his jab dominated the fight and controlled it for him. I never argued that duran didn't use a bigger variety more than Pea, but we were talking about a jab here.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree Duran was in a better position to counter sometimes because he wasn't trying to make them miss and miss over and over. I agree with this and made opponents pay more for missing than Pea would at times. However, that doesn't change the fact that Pea made people miss more and got hit less. Pretty much the textbook definition of defense. My analogy was spot on.. not the one you use. Greenbay gives up the 22nd most points in the league... and you go well they're still better than Houston who gave up the 2 fewest points. Your reasoning... well Greenbay only gave up more because they blitzed more. Ummm so? They gave up more points.. period... would've.. could've stuff doesn't matter. Greenbay gave up more. Same thing here.. Duran got hit more and didn't make people miss as much. It's really that simple.

I see you didn't mention ring generalship so maybe you're finally agreeing with this point... Not really sure how it can be argued. Duran didn't make people fight his fight more than Pea made the best they faced fight his. Pea was clearly superior at making the best fighters they faced fight his fight. He was a master at that. Duran was good... maybe even really good.. but not a master at it like Pea.

Anyways, I'm not even saying who would win in a fight between the two, but my whole point was, Pea was better at more things than Duran than you gave him credit for.

 

This is one of the problems with the reductionist analysis of boxers.

Yes, Whitaker demonstrated his jab more often, and it was a brilliant jab. But the fact he relied so much on his jab, and at times lived by it, only underscores his rather pedestrian offensive arsenal.

 

I watched just a quick snip of Whitaker-Nelson and I saw Pernell throwing all kinds of punches. This was just the 3rd round. Body-punches and everything else. The jab was major but it was not keeping Neslon off him. Pernell had to stop and throw really hard bodyshots.

I talked about ring generalship in post 37. You replied but, I will copy and

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just to make sure.

"Radar? nah..Duran slipped and countered prime Hagler and Leonard.

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Jab? Pernell's is pretty but, Duran set up his wide array of punches. He jab and slipped and got inside. Or he countered and slipped and got inside. Pernell controlled the pace with his jab and he had a nice counter left hand that landed plenty but had no effect on top fighters. Prime Duran is not 147 Chavez. 135 Chavez is not 147 Chavez. There is no comparision, however Buchannan and DeJesus compare well to Pernell...not to mention Sugar Ray Leonard. Pernell had great defense and he got hit less but this was because he was not interested in punching as much as not getting hit. Duran wanted to KO his opponent so he put himself in harms way. The one time he purely boxed he was untouchable."

I am not sure is I have seen your position on my challenge of Pernell fighting the same style of fighters, that just simply come forward and stalk him, as it relates to your statement the Pernell has faced a wider range of styles than Duran. I put forward Hearn, Hagler, Leonard, Benitez etc as he different styles he faced. I know you said he lost to many of them but aside from Hearns and Benitez had very good showing against fighters who had marked advantages over him.

 

This is one of the problems with conflating analysis of boxers. Just because one has a bigger arsenal of punches they used, doesn't by proxy mean their jab is better. Having and using a bigger arsenal isn't mutually inclusive with having a great jab. It's unquantifiable to say how much Duran's jab helped out his other arsenal. Which is to say, if he used it less, how much less effective would he have been. Difficult to say. What we can say, is that Whitaker used his jab more effectively and dominated fights with it. Something we can't say about Duran. He might've been able to like Whitaker, but he didn't. Conflating other things he did well with a jab isn't sound reasoning.

 

You should watch more of the fight than just 3 rounds... when you can.. watch more of it and you'll see a jab clinic.

He didn't force Hagler to fight his fight... Same with SRL 2... Same with W.B... I could list some of his other losses but I won't. Suffice to say, Pea was better at this than Duran. Pretty much all the best he fought... Chavez, Ramirez, Nelson, Mcgirt, DLH, Haugen and Vasquez were all made to fight as Pernell wanted. The best Duran faced were all not made to fight Duran's fight. The difference seems quite apparent to me. Pea was simply the better ring general, and in my view, it's not really that close.

I don't think DLH was a stalker.. neither was McGirt which are two prime examples. Neither was Haugen... Sr or others. The fact is most fight looked the same beause PEA MADE THEM THAT WAY. Which goes to the above.. he's the better ring general. Pretty much the definition of that is making another fighter fight your fight... That's exactly what Pea did.

So let me ask you this... out of these things.. which would go to Pea and which to Duran

Jab
Cross
hooks
Body Punching
Defense (head movement)
Defense (body movement)
Chin
Ring Generalship
Footwork
Speed
Power
Radar
Countering
heart

 

I have watched plenty of Pernell. I have studied his fights. He was brillant against Nelson. He had to fight McGirt. DLH fought the same way he always fought. Chavez came forward all the time so did Ramirez. When Duran fought Leonard He had Leonard slugging from the opening bell. Leonard never slugs from the opening bell, except in Montreal, and Roberto Duran.

Jab (Whitaker)
Cross (Duran)
hooks (Duran)
Body Punching (Duran)
Defense (head movement) (Duran)
Defense (body movement) (Duran)
Chin (Duran)
Ring Generalship (Duran)
Footwork (Whitaker)
Speed (Whitaker)
Power (Duran)
Radar (Whitaker)
Countering (Duran)
heart (Both are warriors...Duran fought until he was 50)

 

Suffice to say I don't agree with some of your picks... but let's get back to this one that you don't seem to budge on that I think is fairly obvious to me and many. Let me ask you this... name all the fights where fighters made Pea fight their fight and won.. We can even keep it to just the best they fought (i.e. duran has losses against sub par competition that Pea doesn't which further hurts your case but we'll leave them out)

The best Pea fought... Ramirez... Nelson.. Mcgirt... Chavez.. haugen.. Vasquez... Sr... Brazier... DLH all fought how Pea wanted and none of them dictated the fight to pea.. he dictated it to them for most of the fight. Now can you say the same about the best Duran fought... W.B... hearns.. SRL... Hagler... Cuevas.. Dejesus... Ken B... Some of those he dictated.. while others they dictated to him which illustrates to me who was clearly the better general.

 

My point is that by reducing this to somewhat arbitrary categories that are equally weighted and applying the estimations of each in a vacuum, we can be misled.

Yes, Whitaker did things with his jab that Duran never did. But Duran used his jab to make the right openings and positioning to unload the rest of his great offense... which when humming was largely predicated on his jab. Duran would be selling himself short trying to do what Whitaker did... if he even could. But his jab served every bit as useful a role in his offense as Whitaker's did. Those were roles were just different given their different games.

To simplify this whole thing... Duran isn't going to spend his night on the end of a jab or get involved in a jabbing contest.

And all in all, Whitaker deserves to be in the very short list of lightweights who would trouble him... top 3, I am not sure but perhaps.

 

Oh I get what you're saying Big S, and I see where you're coming from, but I still believe you can see that Pea had the better jab. So, it's like I don't disagree with your assertions about Duran and how the jab played a big role in his offense. I agree, I just think we can still say Pea's was better all in all.

How do you feel about ring generalship.. Who do you think was better in that area?

 

Yeah, i was going a bit down the rabbit hole there but my real point is how much wouldjab bing be a factor and whose jab would be yielding the respective fighter's best results.

In regards to RG, they were both such powerful presenses in the ring at their best. I think it wpuld see saw but I believe that over 15 Duran would prevail. He was very powerful, slick and fast at lightweight. He was a cold monster. I would give a week's worth of drinking to see this pne.

 

I hear you, and it would most certainly turn into a battle of wills if they fought. However, wouldn't you agree that in terms of the best they fought.. Pea did a better job of making his opponents fight his fight. As I listed for JLP.. the best Pea fought.. he generally always dictated the fight. Can we say the saw about Duran and the best he fought? Doesn't seem to be true and more often than with Pea... duran's opponents were able to fight their fights.