Which Three Lightweights Have Best Chance With Duran

Julio Cesar Vasquez fought his fight, and in my opinion, won.

Granted, a bit above lightweight.

 

I always pointed out a fight that Pea was forced to fight the others guys fight and lost. Trinidad.

Standing by.

I just watched Whitaker vs. McGirt I and Pernell did not dominate that with the jab or make McGirt fight his fight. McGirt lost but he hit Pernell a lot and made him miss a lot. He also had Pernell coming forward and McGirt was countering Pernell when he came forward. Pernell stood inside with McGirt and traded punches. I think the fight was very close and Pea was trying hard.

I love to know how you think Pernell would do against Leonard, Hearns, and Hagler? Duran made Leonard brawl and beat him, made Hagler cautious and nearly took the title from him. This is years after Duran's prime.

If you want to see domination with the jab, watch Duran vs. Cuevas. For the first three round Duran just spears him the entire round. Around the 3rd Cuevas starts getting frisky and Duran starts breaking him down. Once the 4th starts you start to see Duran's defense and countering. The punch that hurts Cuevas is a right, Duran then slips about 6 punches, and the hits Cuevas with another four shot that put Cuevas down. Cuevas gets up and Duran puts him back down for good. I will watch Whitaker vs. Nelson/DLH again for the domination of the jab and ring generalship that you spoke of. I will reply later.

PS. I have been taking a lot of pot-shots from you but I have been answering all your questions and doing my homework. All I ask is you keep track on the subject and stay off me. Watch the Cuevas fight and give me your thoughts.

 

Hey Bud, first let me say I wasn't trying to send any pot-shots your way to be honest. If there was, it was simply because you weren't conceding what I thought was a fairly obvious point... Pea's jab was better. You have since done so, but at first you didn't and I felt like you were being kinda obtuse just to be obtuse.

I dont' know how Whitaker would do against those guys.. but what I don't see happening is them making Whitaker not fight his fight as much as they did Duran. For example, I don't see W.B. doing what he did to Duran to Whitaker. I don't see SRL making whitaker quit. For that matter I don't see Hearns koing whitaker.. winning sure.. but don't see the KO.

I've seen the Cuevas fight on a number of occasions and watched it again this weekend (no computer to type at home right now, only a tablet which I hate typing. Duran did very well in that fight in all aspects really, including his jab. However, it wasn't a jab performance like Whitaker vs. Nelson for example Whitaker controlled pretty much every fight he was in via the jab. Obviously he controlled Nelson or Greg with the jab more so than DLH.. but DLH had more physical tools than those guys so he wasn't easy to control. However, Pea was in the fight for three reasons.. his jab.. his savy and his defense.

I don't even really need to mention the Trinidad fight at all because he was a past his prime blown up coke addict by that point. Yet, a prime killer and WW couldn't put him away. A testament to his fortitude and heart really. I don't bring it up for the same reason I don't bring up the SRL 3rd fight... Just really dont' matter for a prime or close to prime fighter.

For me what this comes down to is Whitaker better controlled the best he fought in comparison to Duran did against his best. Not sure anybody can even argue that point. So to me, that seems to make it clear that Whitaker was the better general all in all.

 

We still do not completely agree on the jab.

I agreed, that Whitaker had the better jab only if we consider that his was used more, faster, and was Pernell's most effective weapon...however I couched that in saying that Duran had the more effective jab because it had opened his offense and itself controlled the pace. Look at the first Leonard bout and you will see Duran backing Leonard up with the jab and countering Leonard when he tried to counter the jab.

Whitaker never faced the likes or anywhere near the likes of Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Hagler, Benitez, etc to know how is jab would have held up against them let alone if he would have even seen the final bell after 15 rounds of fun. I could fall for the Duran quit routine if I did not watch him go into trench warfare with Leonard in the same year. You can pull out "No Mas" but without the true context of that match included, it is a waste of time with me. The score at the time of the quit was close. Duran made a bad decision but it was not from a beating he was taking.

I have pointed out that Whitaker did not control McGirt with the jab nor De La Hoya. I have watched some of the Nelson recently. I watched it all a while ago and I still have more to rewatch for this conversation, yet every round I watch I see Pernell on the move jabbing and countering...actually throwing a lot of bodyshots and then getting back in the bike. It is a masterpiece but not Wright-Trinidad as far as the jab is concerned. In short, not a jabbing master-class, but I will reserve final judgment on it untill after I finish.

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- quoting you in the last post.

You are right it was not easy to control DLH with just a jab. It is hard to do when you are fighting hall of fame caliber competition. That is the reason. DLH had more tools, more speed, and skill than most other fghters that Whitaker ever fought. It would be even harder to do if he faced the best of Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, and Duran himself. All four would beat him and beat him up. Explain to me why Pernell did not control the pace against McGirt. Also please answer why did not Pernell fight more fighters that surpased him in speed and skill. And real talk? What took so long for the Chavez-Whitaker fight. Why didn't it happen at 140 much earlier?

Duran was 38 when he took the Middleweight title from Barkley....fortitude and heart.

 

I don't if you watched the mcgirt fight then JLP to be saying some of what you do... Whitaker totally controlled the fight.. it just wasn't in his conventional way of countering and moving around. His instructions were and if you listen you'll hear... Stand your ground.. don't move around too much.. they felt like Mcgirt couldn't fight inside with Pernell so they wanted him there and that is exactly what he did and won the fight that way. Granted, he looked like he could be even more successful doing his matador routine because when he did it worked but he still won. So, I'm not sure why you think McGirt controlled that fight.. he controlled neither fight. The jab was still a very important weapon and one that set up all the other punches he was throwing per the usual for him. The jab absolutely did control mcgirt and kept him off balance and set up all his other punches. It wasn't a dominating as other fights but it was still the best punch of the night for either person.

Did you even bother to mention that Mcgirt was the bigger stonger guy in there.. Whitaker was moving up to take the champs title and he still controlled the fight and won. Each time he did so and controlled the fight per the norm for Pea... just can't say the same for duran.

Not even sure why you're bringing up Chavez like Whitaker ducked him for a few years, when in fact, it was the opposite. King and his people wanted NOTHING to do with Whitaker because they knew he would be trouble and he was just that. So, I'm not even sure why you brought it up other than trying to paint a picture that just isn't true. Whitaker made it a point to fight the best no matter what.. this was a theme of his career.. to even try and paint a picture otherwise is disingenuous

Whitaker still controlled Hoya with the jab though.. he couldn't control him always because he was the bigger younger guy.. but he still controlled the fight and landed the jab consistently.. which again is the point.. he didn't need to control the fight with the jab to display ring generalship.. he controlled the fight period.. with whatever it took. You can't say the same for duran. Pea controlled pretty much all his prime fights or close to prime..we can't say the same for duran. It's really that simple. In fact, Duran had fights dictated to him... name me the fights that Pernell had dicated to him at or near his prime?

I know for a fact that Whitaker wouldn't have quit against SRL.. Duran didn't control that fight and got frustrated because of it.. wouldn't happen with whitaker. Same with W.B. he controlled and dictated the fight... wouldn't be he same with Whitaker. He could still beat whitaker but he wouldn't control the fight like he did with Duran. Neither can I see Hearns KOing whitaker.. just don't see it... The point is, Whitaker beat the best he faced and controlled the best he faced at or near his prime.. we can't say the same about duran. It's really that simple

Do you agree that Duran didn't control the best he fought as well as pea did?

I also don't know why you're bringing up speed like he ducked speed. whitaker FOUGHT THE BEST available to him. Period. He didn't duck anybody and thus you saying who he didn't fight wasn't his fault. He fought the best and beat the best. Simple

 

Whitaker beat the best he faced and controlled the best he faced because the best he faced was not that great to begin with.

You exchange Duran for Whitaker and Duran KO's all of Whitaker LW challenges. At 147 he destroys De La Hoya, Trinidad, and Chavez with no problem. I cannot see one fighter on Whitaker resume that even belongs in the ring with a prime Duran at 135 or 147.

Now, Lets put Whitaker and his superior ring generalship and great jab and put him in the ring with Buchannan, Dejesus, Leonard, Hagler 160, Benitez and Hearns at 154, and Barkley 160.

Did Pernell ever fight at 160? One fight a 154...and all of a sudden he does better than Duran did against Hearns and Hagler at 154 and 160? Nah, Trinidad had him hanging on at 147. The best Pernell fought was mediocre compared to Duran. Subpar if I wanted to push it. Hagler did not exactly dominate in there with Duran. Let me tell you. Pernell would not be controlling the tempo or anything with Leonard, Hearns, or Hagler.

 

A lot of this couldn't be further from the truth actually... Chavez, Hoya, Ramirez, Nelson, Felix, McGirt were all great fighters. So, I don't know why you get this notion that they weren't. Whitaker controlled each one of them besides Felix when he was a blown up coke head by that point. On the other hand... Duran didn't control nor beat some of the best he fought... He lost to Dejesus.. Lost to Hearns... Lost to Hagler.. Lost to W.B... lost to SRL.. this isn't even including some of other bad losses to fighters that wouldn't have won ONE ROUND against Pea. Granted, some of the fighters Duran lost to were more prime than him.. but the fact remains he didn't control those fights. Period. Pea certainly would've done better again W.B... Wouldn't have quit against SRL (that is for sure)... Wouldn't have gotten KO'd by Hearns.. Wouldn't have lost to Dejesus. Probably done worse against Hagler though. Point is, to say Pea didn't face any great fighters is laughable. Just look at a fighter like Ken B.. he went to war with Duran... Ken B is very comparable historically speaking with a Ramirez or a Nelson.. Whitaker barely lost rounds against those guys... Duran was in a fight with Ken B.

Whitaker would exactly be controlling the tempo against Hearns and SRL... It might not win him the fight.. but one thing he did was control the tempo. You keep on bringing up Barkley and Hagler but Pea was naturally smaller so he never fought at MW.. it's an irrelevant point since Duran could and was naturally bigger. I never said pea would do as well against those guys.. but at 147 n below he would do just fine. Name me the fighters at 147 or 135 on Duran's resume that you'd pick to beat Whitaker.. The only one I could see you naming would be SRL.. and he's probably the second best WW of all time. Besides him.. who? By the way.. I love Duran but if you don't think Hoya could give him problems... you're in a dream world. If Hoya fought smart he could really give him issues. I would pick Duran but Hoya could spoil him. Same with chavez.. that is no walk in the park either and Whitaker dominated him. I guess you believe he would've steamrolled Nelson.. I don't agree. Win probably.. but dominate.. nah.

 

It really wasn't.

 

Henry Armstrong vs duran
both masters of the brutal and beautiful art of infighting. could duran live with that once in a 100 years engine which Armstrong had? meeting a fighter as skilled in the eye of the storm as himself?
Gamboa vs duran
chose this one purely on excitement and a sweet mesh of styles the blazing powerful combos of gamboa vs the violence and explosiveness of a prime duran. Durans chin and shorter punching would probably decide this one, but be spectacular while it lasted.
Chavez vs duran
Only Chavez had a skillset matching and in some areas surpassing duran's.
they were both big world class punchers at lightweight, both loved the inside game and both had steel jaws both were so inventive in the ring but all else equal id give the edge to duran on adaptability (tho this really reached its full potency in durans mid to late years)

 

Give me two guys that Pernell beat at Lightweight that were better than Duran's LW competition.

 

Still waiting for my answers 2... but to reverese your question... Which LW on Duran's resume beat Whitaker? Duran lost to Dejesus... Whitaker wouldn't. So who beats Whitaker again?

 

I wouldn't say McGirt was the stronger guy.

Buddy McGirt entered the first fight with Whitaker with a torn left rotator cuff ... and he had to have surgery immediately afterward to reattach a tendon that had completely tore away from his shoulder. They lied their way through pre-fight physicals and somehow the NY commission doctors passed McGirt.

He and his trainer were roundly criticized for going through with the fight because he was in no condition to fight ... but they said they didn't want to miss out on the $1 million payday.

Still, it was a close fight. If he hadn't been injured, who knows what would've happened. McGirt wasn't the same after that. He barely won a tuneup before the rematch.

 

Casamayor, Corrales, Castillo.