Ali vs Marciano: How would it go?

Come on, Marciano was not slow. He threw punches at different speeds. Some times he was fast other times, usually when he had a guy helpless, he would slow down in order to change a punch direction mid flight. Looked terrible but the leverage was always there and it worked for him.

I am sure you are aware of the particular sequences of film when Rocky was fast. The kid Mathews knock out. Double left hook combo. The counter hook and right uppercut that up ended Walcott in their rematch. The counter right that won him the title beat Walcott to the draw- he was throwing his own right hand but Rocky got there first.

 

I think he was slow,especially for such a small heavy. Mathews was just a hype job.Walcott swallowed it in the return imo.

Marciano wasnt countering Walcott they just threw simultaneously.

 

I don't think you want to credit Rocky here. Hype job or not, even if mathews was all hype that was still fast punching by Rocky. Does Ali hitting Brian London fast not count because it was only Brian London?

Fast hands is fast hands.

Same with Walcott.

However joe turned up in the second fight Rocky timed that sequence of punches very instinctively fast. Does a losing fighter not being his best somehow make the winning fighter punch faster than he would normaly?

Rocky timed Walcott in their first fight. he followed Joe all around the ring knowing Walcott would pull back and let go a right off the ropes. Marciano pulled the trigger as soon as Walcott let go his punch. He anticipated it. That's beating him to the draw and setting up a knockout.

Rocky was fast when he wanted to be.

 

What a load of BS - you are a typical example of the type of poster I'm talking about - you start of talking **** about Frazier's fat thighs arguing about 1 inch or whatever I can't even be bothered to check - fact is, and Frazier was renowned for his fat chunky thighs and my point was that Frazier was slow and plodding - he couldn't be anything but - and he never had any problems tracking Ali down? Similarly watching Marciano and Ali in the film of the Computer fight it is fairly clear to anybody was a reasonable appreciation of reality that there's no real discernible difference in the respective comparison of Frazier/Ali and Marciano/Ali - although you'll probably say something like "statistically Marciano was always 0.8 of an inch further behind Ali than Frazier was a respective moments" or some similar 5h1t? Basically there was no issue whatsoever with Marciano getting after Ali - you can say whatever you like on that it's just semantics - basically there would be no problem with Marciano getting to Ali just like there was no problem Chuvalo getting to him - or but then yeah Sorry I forgot that Chuvalo was one of the greatest contenders and would've been champion in any other era

 

So heavy hands says he is "probably" the slowest 185 pounder ever so that's it then everyone:good so yeah Marciano was unbeaten in 49 fights and only 5 men avoided KOs against him and he Ko'd everyone he faced in his years at the top level including some of the smartest defensive fighters in history so he must've been REEAALL slow:yep

 

Marciano was not fast, either of hand or foot.

Marciano had practised the uppercut for the second fight it was a planned punch.
I give Marciano credit, no one got more out of their ability than he did. The underlined is nonsense.

 

Vitali Klitschko kod nearly everyone he faced, he was slow too.

Marciano made his rep beatiing old men.

 

Just curious..In your opinion who could avoid Joe Louis' Jab? A prime Ezzard Charles couldn't. He got his face lit up like he went through a meat grinder.

Watch the films again, Marciano displayed fine head movement and slipped many of Joe Louis' jabs while weaving in his crouch. The ones that did land did a lot of damage, because Louis has one of the most powerful jabs in the division.

 

Ali had hell on his hands full against the 5'10 206lb Frazier and prime for prime caught the beating of his life and it was life and death in 3 fights for him, Jimmy Ellis also dropped Bonavena 2X but Oscar hit Ali plenty with his awkward shots and Bonavena was not a pimple on Rockys ass when it came to power and technique or endurance/chin/pace.

Ali had trouble with the shorter lighter guys one armed Frazier hurt him badly in the 11th rd and dropped him in the 15th Marciano had a right hand to go with the hook so I think ALI was correct when he said Marciano would be a tougher fight for him than Frazier, Ali gets credit for cut stoppage because of Cooper (who had tissue soft skin and woke up from a rough nights sleep with a bloody eye but the 184lb Cooper had Ali on his ass and the 5'11 190lb Doug Jones gave him a go....the legend of Ali has great bonus wins over Liston and Foreman, Liston quit and faked it and Foreman gassed badly, Marciano would not subscribe to that.

 

Marciano pulled the trigger quick when he wanted and did it many times once on the attack he beat many a quick fighter to the punch, shorter arms and all and he was fighting experienced skilled fighters and landed flush on the durable brawler Layne (who survived Satterfield) and ruined him with a quick short crunch of a right, taking out all of Layne's top teeth with the shot

 

well Ali fought Moore 8 years after Rocky, Cooper had already been KO'd cold against Floyd P, Zora Foley a few days short of 37 and Cleveland Williams (33 and shot up) were past there best, I dont know how old Sonny was but I'm hearing anywhere from 38 to 48 so Ali had 10 + year age advantages over many to make it to the title. I think Marciano made his rep beating the best men available and a lot of the younger guys were eliminated by KO loss by most of the older championship pedigree guys

 

Folley was 34 vs. Ali. Liston's age has often been exaggerated as we discussed at length.
You CANNOT cherry-pick one guys worst & pre or post prime bouts & slam him only for them, especially when he won.

Marciano did beat very good "old men". Even if not quite prime. For example Walcott fought very well the first time, but in his prime I think would not have tired late. But it is hypocritical to only go by age of opponents for one guy, like Ali, then ignore age & consider quality for Rocky.

Also it is absurd to act like Foreman just "gassed". Ali survived an assault very few could have. Jimmy Young would not have when George was in his prime & not afraid of gassing. He made Liston quit, who was losing anyway.

Rocky though pretty slow overall could deliver some short punches quickly, that I accept.

 

RSN I said the majority of your post was good & when disagreeing politely you get mean in response. Saying I talk BS, **** this & that...& are gratuitously mocking. This is no way to get respect or show you are secure with honest disagreements.

Now I do not know where you referred to what kind of "typical poster", but it sems like you funnel folks into disparaging categories that I doubt I match. Just address what I am saying absent a threatened ego.

1) WHY would you say "1" or whatever" when I say you were off by 2"? You are acting like somehowit is petty to care about the details. And 2" is significant.

2) Frazier never had "fat thighs: in his prime. More of his muscle mass was below the waist. He was NOT renowned for "fat" thighs.

3) More importantly, you seem to conveniently skip that BIG thighs does not mean slow, & some of the very fastest HWs & maybe all the top sprinters for years have big thighs.

4) Frazier was not slow of foot, bobbed & weaved with alacrity, & was FAST of hand-just not as fast as Ali. His attack WAS plodding in a way, in its relentlessness. He was easily faster than Rocky overall. Note I credit Rocky w/more 2 handed power, better punch variety, slightly better chin, & due to energy expended, slightly better endurance.

I do not think it quite makes up for significant differences in speed & accuracy especially. Also Frazier is bigger & did not cut as easily. Both had A + hearts.

5) I never said he had no problem tracking Ali down. But he could continually, he just absorbed much punishment in doing so.

6) Chuvalo is your BEST argument here, since a swarmer & Ali was prime.
But consider how many rounds he won, & how many more you think prime Rocky would.
Chuvalo fought very well there.

7) "Say what you want & it is just semantics" is a content-free response. Anything can be dismissed that way, but absent showing the words are wrong, it means nada.

8) As others have told you, you are completely misguided re: the computer fight. No disrespect, but that whole affair was completely choreographed! There would be nothing to sell IF they did not illustrate many exchanges, you think folks would orchestrate a dance-fest with pot shotting like against Wlliiams?

That staged event PROVED nothing. And they had various endings for different audiences. You think Ali just was slowed due to exile & being out of shape?
No, they just traded exchanges like a movie fight.
Any other belief is very naive.

I mean, Ali did learn Rocky could still hit hard, & was not a pushover.
Marciano noted even the declined & choreographed Ali was the "fastest thing on wheels".

And Ali learned not to continually jab off Marciano's Toupee. ;-)

But it was meaningless to show who would win prime vs. prime.

 

Walcott slipped a lot of Louis's jabs but of course Louis was on the way down.Conn didn't get nailed with many in their first fight. Godoy had some success in their first fight.Lee Ramage slipped a lot of them.
Marciano was badly marked up by Louis's jab and it was no longer the piston of his prime years ,he was quite tentative with it. Marciano was not hard to hit with jabs whatever anyone may aver, he relied on his right glove to block a lot of jabs.
Walcott landed plenty on him,he also said Rocky was not hard to hit, but that he was hard to catch with a really heavy punch.

Ali was a lot quicker than Walcott and had 4 inches on him in reach, he could tap tap tap all night on Marciano.

 

Ali was coming off of nearly 4 years out of the ring when he fought Frazier lets get real here.

Beating of his life? Hyperbole, Ali was back in the ring within 4 months beating up ranked contender Jimmy Ellis.
It was Frazier who got the beating of his life and spent a week in hospital.
It was Frazier who did not fight for a whole year afterwards.
It was Frazier who then defended against two unranked journeyman, refusing to risk his title against a ranked contender for 2 years .

You have that completely arse backwards!

Liston quit because he was getting beat up and on the way to being stopped ,that is the reality of it.
Cooper scaled 185.5 in the first Ali fight,again Ali was pre-prime as he was versus Jones.
Foereman ,probably the single biggest heavyweight champion hitter ever gassed after hitting Ali with his best shots for 8 rds.
Why couldn't Ali absorb the same punishment from Marciano with the same lack of results if he had to?

Cooper was cut in 4 fights Marciano in 6 .

Against Bonavena Ali had 3.5 rounds of boxing in nearly 4 years do you want to consider him pre exile instead of pre prime and past prime, or is that too inconvenient to your argument?
Foreman and Liston would bury Marciano.
You are grasping at straws here ,and it shows.