Ali vs Marciano: How would it go?

Well it appears you were slightly wrong (Folley was still 35, not 36), but I was more incorect. In my defense a few sites, including his wikipedia page, DAY he was 34 vs. Ali, but the match indeed adds up to approaching 36.

Sometimes things gain common currency but are dead wrong. As case in point might be tthe conceit hat Folley was way past his prime. You cherry hid losses, ut cannot dispute that he had not loss since '62 in many fights.

 

Everybody saw Ali's absolute prime, he had already topped out around the time of his exile. If he had of been active during those years Ali would have been as good as he was in the folley fight for maybe two more fights then he would have lost that half step just like he did.

In fact, If you watch that Foley fight Ali sits down on his feet a bit. A whole lot more than earlier defences. He's not dancing the whole three minutes even then. He was maturing with his attitude as well as his body and perhaps had more confidence in his boxing. that energised youth speed and a lot of his flamboyant ring gestures were as much down to the arrogance of an adolescent with something to prove. Often enthusiasm for the championship wanes after a point for even the most gifted champions. With Terrell out the way who is to say Ali might not have been ready to slacken off?

The Terrell fight Ali used incredible energy, moving the whole time. The Williams fight was a cake walk. He knew Williams had nothing so he put on an exhibition. That's all it was. Brilliant but he knew how much control he had to play with. After that without an exile he was still a young man, incredibly active and perhaps ready to adapt into the measured performer he became by 1972-74.

The whole exile forced a renewed passion to prove himself again. There was a lot to get motivated about for that comeback. In a lot of ways the exile could have prolonged Ali's prime.

This idea that there was this extra zenith about to emerge at the time of his forced exile is nonsense. A fighters world class prime starts when he hits world class. Age has something to do with it but not all of it. Five years is a long time to stay at the top. Seven is huge to maintain. Remember Joe Louis had some break too.

Take Tyson. If he had a forced exile right after the Spinks fight people could say "we never saw his real prime, he would have got better!" And they would have been wrong. In reality TYsons ring prime levelled out right after that fight.

Let's not get carried away. There was more of the same to come. No way was there another level to come from Ali.

 

The whole of your post is just supposition,there is not one fact in it.As such it doesn't merit further response.

 

everyone knows folley was a weak defence. hes equivalent to wlads strongest defences though.

 

McV, surely the whole concept of fantasy fights is just supposition, after all, none of us can PROVE what would happen in such matches?

I actually thought Choklab's post was interesting, thought provoking & theoretically quite feasible.

 

Ali would use his vastly superior size, reach, speed and strength to cut Rocky up and stop him in the later rounds .. Marciano would of course be game but out classed and way too small ..

 

I mostly agree. A theory that you seldom hear is had Ali not been out of the game for a while he would have had even less than he had vs Norton, Frazier and Foreman in the 1970's.

Ali's title defenses in the 60's outside of the first Liston fight were easy. Williams was shot...literally, Foley too was too small. Terrell was in his prime.

The best filmed performance for Ali was the first Liston fight. You could say Ali's prime started well before 1967.

 

Ali was pushed more by Liston the first time, but he was at his very best shortly before exile.

There is absolutely no reason to think we know whether Ali could hav egotten better, stayed the same or slowly declined during his exile. What he did vs. Foley was in part what he thought would work well, & he toyed with him as others too.

The "arrogance of youth"...Um, OK. But the speed & movement was not merely or mostly arrogance; it was a unique HW ability Ali brought to the table. There is no reason to think that his dancing all the timebefore that was a lack of "maturity" or confidence. He did it mostly because it worked & for the same reason a dog liks his balls. It was not necessary against Foley, he was not the 1 punch threat that Williams was, shot or not.

Foley I repeat had not lost since '62 & it was his 16th fight since that loss to Doug Jones. He was no ATG, but he was a good defense.

It is fair to say we do not know IF Ali might have slackened in the late '60's, or if it saved him for later fights. But all other things being equal, like Joe Louis & Mike Tyson, it is a significant DISADVANTAGE to be inactive during ones normal prime. Louis fought many army exhibitions, even that is not the same as competitive bouts to keep sharp. Ali did not even have that.

 

There was no extra level to come from Ali. More of the same. Nothing extra.

ALI did exceptionally well to beat quary the way he did after all that time off. ALI was an exceptional talent to record that win at that time.

 

Completely disagree with your post .. Ali was getting stronger and better .. he showed improvement and dominance, zero signs of decay .. he was just 25 years old at the time of the start of his exile .. I can only assume your post is not serious .. Tyson topped out because he could not handle the fame and temptation and partied like an animal and stopped training. It had nothing to do w diminishing of is talent due to anything but his own weaknesses as a person.

 

What you are saying is perfectly plausible, but we ultimately don’t know one way or the other.

We have to work with the versions of Jeffries, Louis, Ali, and Tyson that we have.

 

Right janitor. But it does not make sense to say he could not have gotten better, especially since he HAD the last couple of years & was just 25. The most you can say is he may well have not improved, but he might have, & at least he should have been able to maintain roughly that level for several years.

But losing prime years certainly hurts, it is hard to come back as good.
He compensated well but not fully for the lost (especially foot) speed.
Just having extre years as champion &/or dominant is a big difference.

 

There is 100% supposition in your statement "we never saw Ali's prime, nobody did" where is the fact within this?

There was no extra level to come from Ali after the Folley fight, he was at his best at that point and could have maintained that level for a bit longer before he lost half a step from his youth speed by 1971 from losing enthusiasm for the championship or from levelling out.

Seven years of fighting is a long time to maintain even a gifted fighters incredible athletic abilty at the top. There could have been a slight drop off by the time TFOTC actually happened had Ali remained active. Who can say?

Around 1977 Ali said in an interview that he was as still as fast as he had ever been but only for a very short amount of time. He explained it was still there but he just had to ration it out. Now that's 1977. Roll back to say 1964 when he had speed "all the time" some thirteen years earlier, the half way point of that and a time where Ali says he has only part of what he had is around 1971. I think it is fair to say a slight drop off in Ali's "full speed all the time" would have been around 1971.

So Ali probably returned to the ring at his own cut off point. Being active during the exile might have maintained a peak for three years but he was going to dip a little anyway. There was a lot left to work with when he came back, certainly all the attributes he would have had if he had not been away.

 

Two of Alis' opponents who fought him both in his first reign and in his comeback , Chuvalo ,and Patterson both agreed he had lost some speed and ability to maintain a continued fast pace.
I'll go with their opinions rather than your suppositions.