Ali vs Marciano: How would it go?

This is my all time dream fight...I'll take a prime Marciano to win...

 

I agree with them. Ability to maintain a continued fast past had reduced by then as it would have had he continued throughout his exile.

The best ALi could expect to achieve is where he would be if he had continued throughout his exile. I think he did. Seven years maintaining continued fast past is a stretch. He was going to drop off from that somewhat by 1971. His zora Folley performance showed the beginnings of some alternating the pace within a round.

Nowhere has an opponent from both his first reign and post exile said Ali would have produced an extra special level between 1967-1970 had he continued boxing or should have returned with 1960s pace in 1971. They did not say "nobody saw his prime".

 

ha ha you were a a year and 347 days off your mark I was was 5 days, I think slightly is an understatement but no worries :good

 

No, your math of 1 year 347 days is slightly off, that is not 5 days off of 365.
And I very accurately said you were closer that time. But in Wikipedia & other places Folley is inaccurately listed as 34 then, so I was not at all careless.

More importantly he had not lost since '62, fighting regularly against some top contenders.

 

I do not know if any Ali opponents commented very specifically if Ali could have gotten better during his exile. That not coming up does not show what they thought.

So his speed MIGHT have started to drop around '71 around '71. But that still would be less than it did & he would not have lost timing or had ring rust. SO if he just maintained speed clearly he could have improved his skill set, incorporating '70's virtues: or he could have stayed about the same.

Not running all the time in one fight vs. Folley shows nothing, it was not to his advantage to do so. Anyway he at least lost years where he should have been equally dominant. The biggest question would be how he would have handled Frazier, & with his speed he would have had the advantage, even though nobody could expect it to be easy, I do not think Frazier would win.

 

Why would it be less than it did? Ali not fighting for three years means that his career stalled. There were no training camps, no hard sparring so no wear and tear. If he continued his heavy schedule during the years he could have maintained his fast pace throughout a fight he could have burned out some. I think it most likely Ali returns where he would be had he continued. Slightly less able to maintain a fast pace but still as capable in all other departments. Which is where he was.

Ali timed Quarry pretty well. The 15 hard rounds with Bonavena looked awful but shook off rust and was excellent prep for Frazier. The style of Oscar was always going to upset Ali. It was harder to time an unpredictable customer with no rhythm. Ali did after all go into the Frazier fight having improved on Fraziers results against two "exile years contenders".

I think it is easier to expect he would stay the same during the 1968- 69 period as he was in 1967. 1970 I imagine Ali would begin to ration out his speed a tad whilst maintaining the timing and handspeed.

Improve his skill set? In what way? Was he going to incorporate body punching, I can't think what else he could have "improved" without turning into another fighter. I can't think of a long reigning champion who improved his skill set four years into his reign.

Yes he lost those years but going into TFOTC he had been through three training camps and had 17 rounds of world class fighting since returning. since Ali's return Frazier had less active rounds over the same timescale.

Frazier was always good enough to beat ALi one time and he was always good enough for there to be a demand for a series of fights. They were a perfect match.

 

What did Ali and Marciano think about a matchup?

Marciano wasn't a braggart. He was always thoughtful and careful in what he said.
I've heard him say that he would not have wanted to fight Liston or prime Louis.
He also said with confidence that he could have beaten Ali.

Ali was a braggart- the world's worst.
He said he THOUGHT he could have beaten Marciano but he wasn't sure. The more he thought about it, the more guarded he became. He finally said "I just don't know who would win, but it would be a long fight".

I'll take their word for it. I think they know more than anyone here about it.
I'll take Marciano in at least a 12 rounder.

 

This is good point. Fighters know things about themselves, are aware of their capabilities and can see things in potential opponents. Stylistic compatibility and mental strength can be weighed up meeting someone in person as these two both did. On this subject I think we should take their word for it.

As an aside, to my knowledge, I don't think Ali did say he thought Marciano had slow hands and he did not say he would have found an extra special level had he been allowed to fight during his forced exile years.

 

Ali would have to fight the full 3 minutes of every round in a fight against The Rock...something he rarely did. A guy like Marciano...with the endless stamina...the power
of the 'Suzie Q"...the "kill or be killed" attitude...the great conditioning...the mental
toughness...that's a lot for Ali to overcome with a left jab...he'll be backing up all night...

 

Frazier never had to track down a prime Ali, who was significantly more fleet of foot than 1971 Ali.

And the computer simulation fight with Marciano was also after Ali's prime.

 

Ali's strength is often underrated, but he did not have superior strength vis a vis Rocky.

I have little doubt that he would have decisioned him, though.

And by a fairly wide margin.

 

Some good questions Choklab. I will answer them systematically.

1) I referred in your first quote to SPEED. You answered as if I said something else, ability to mainatin a fast pace. So 1st I was saying his absolute speed declined, & significantly in terms of foot speed.

His ability to maintain whatever pace he was capable of, your point, ALSO declined at least to some degree.

I believe it is pretty clear that with proper training & recovery one can avoid burn out, & his pace did not see likely to cause that. But everyone knows being inactive-& he got relatively out of shape-means you are both less able during this exilte time, AND being a finely calibrated athlete means the inactivity is much more likely to cause erosion of skills that cannot be expected to return 100%, or be just as good with other developed compensatory factors.

This seems more likely to me when a man has virtually unique speed, staying power & reflexes combinations as a HW. A finely honed machine with genetic gifts.

2) That Ali shook of most ring rust does not show A) that he had none against Frazier, he is widely seen to have been advised to take more time & that his '70's prime was '72-'74. B) That he did better vs. Quarry & Bonavena than Frazier proves nothing. Maybe he would have done even better than that if he had what is universally recognized as ring rust. And Frazier was pre-prime during his 1st fight w/Ringo.
C) And maybe Norton & Frazier would always trouble Ali too, but he is more likely to win ~ 2/3 of rounds peak vs. peak.

3) Fair point that in '68-'69 he would remain about the same-in speed & endurance. Then slowly start to slow. But 2 things: I do not think his foot speed at least would have declined significantly & his endurance MIGHT have stayed about the same.

I am not saying he would have improved these supersonic skills. I do not even know IF he would have gotten better overall. But he just might have improved punching power, blocked, parried-who knows, body punching seems less likely,...Or may have not. But like Louis in WW2 even WITH all the exhibitions & being ~ the same age, it seems clear that an enforced lay off would very likely have him WORSE than if he never had said lay off.

I think others did improve 4 years into their reign, but it is a good point to say it is only a possibility. Yet Ali reigning 3 years before the exile, that is a more fair comparison. Tyson COULD have. Lewis fought Conn virtually precisely 4 years into his reign, then Nova Buddy Bear & Simon. I think the experiences of the very fast & slick stick & mover & facing giants helped him. He also had 7 fights including Godoy after THREE years as champion, & these likely assisted his progression against any theoretical opponents.

He seemed physically prime through '42, then though pretty young declined...Due almost certainly to, or at least accelerated by, no serious fights. If you get the title young enough, you might maintain your physical abilities & develop other capacities/improve relative weaknesses. Foreman could of absent Ali defeating him psychologically. Even if not so young when obtaining the title, you think neither KLlitchko improved after 4 years? Lewis arguably did & was no spring chicken!

4) Ali NEEDED to be more active than Frazier after exile, to recover what he could. Frazier was a smaller man & swarmer, he tended to have wars, his activity level then seems just right. He just got a bit complacent & slowed after beating Ali.

5) I dunno, our views on what WOULD have ocurred are colored by what did.
Prime vs. prime, maybe Frazier takes 1 of 3. I give Ali little credit for #2, since I have no idea IF he would have won absent all the holding & pulling.
But most likely Frazier takes no more than 6 rounds of 15, as another recently argued.

Good debate.

 

Yeah Ali was realistic about his abilities,and perceptive about future opponents, thats why he fought Berbick and Holmes.atsch