Classifying and Placements of fighters...

Produce any verified source from a reputable boxing writer where he states that Bert Gilroy ,your Grandfather was a world class boxer.
Show us ONE WIN by him over a world class boxer.
122fights 88 wins 26 losses 8 draws
Best domestic opposition.
Don ****ell L8
Ken Shaw for Scottish area Hvy title L12
Shaw had 5 more fights, lost them all and retired.
Ken ShawL15 Shaw was 9-4-3
Bruce Wood**** Ltko2
Vince Hawkins L8
Bruce Wood**** Lko6
Dave McCleave Ldq2
Freddie Mills Ltko8
Dave McCleave L8
Johnny Clements W dq13 Scottish Area Middle Title
His career record is 62 fights won 27
Jock McCusker vacant Scottish Area lhvy title W15
McCusker was 162.75lbs 9lbs lighter, he was 12-19-0.
To gain some perception of the depth of the Scottish LVhvy division.McCusker was a middleweight who had won 2 of his last 10 fights.
His career resume is 60 fights, 21 wins.

Tommy Smith Scottish Area Middle TitleW15
Smith was 7-4-1 Had lost his last 4 ,would lose his next 2, and retire with 7 wins 7 losses.
Clements was 17-10-1
Ginger Sadd Eliminator for British Mddle Title W10
Sadd had won1 of his last5 fights ,that over a novice whose record was 1-0-0.he would win2 of his next 7 fights, hardly an in form fighter but probably the best man Gilroy ever beat.
Sadd's prime was welterweight where the best he could do was win the Eastern Area title.
Ginger Sadd W12
Ginger Sadd Draw10 Sadd lost his next 4 fights after this draw.


Best overseas opposition.
Marcel Cerdan Lko4 Cerdan was conceding 11.25lbs to Gilroy
Stephane Olek Ltko4
Freddie Mills had given Olek 20lbs and beaten him over 10rds 7months earlier. Olek's career record is 49 fights 28 wins
Johnny Devilliers W10 Devilliers was 14-4-2 He had won 1 of his last 3 and would have one more fight, lose it and retire .

A summary of Gilroy's title honours
Scottish Area Middle weight title.
Scottish Area Lhvy title

National titles None
Commonwealth titles None
European titles None
World titles None
Verdict
Gilroy was a domestic level fighter and no amount of loyalty, and love is going to change that.

Nothing personal ,just the truth as I see it.

 

Come on McVey .... he beat plenty of forgotten greats :yep

 

Isnt that where you always start?

Look, most of the names you mention you were not world class fighters and most of the names you mention beat your grandfather. Right off the bat that doesnt bode well for your argument that your grandfather was a world class/contender/championship level fighter.

You list McAvoy as a champion. He was not a world champion. He was a British and Commonwealth champion. When he stepped up to the world level, if you include his fights with Harvey and Mills (who were both just on the cusp) his record was W. 3 (1) (keeping in mind that his stoppage of Risko came with a 7 pound weight advantage. Could McAvoy have done that making weight, debateable) L. 6 (1). So you could make an argument that he was a fringe contender type but to pretend he was a champion is ridiculous. Yes he beat a MW champion when he was a LHW in a non title bout but that doesnt make him championship calibre.

 

Thats always been his thesis, that simply because nobody ever heard of them doesnt mean they werent great. Its why he posted that crappy footage. His point was "look, these guys were competent fighters so they must have been great to beat by grandad" Its a big leap to say that guys who were fighting competitive fights at the club level were world class much less championship quality their own records prove that assertion false.

 

Are you guys talking about this Bert Gilroy ... who was elected into the World Boxing Hall of Fame?

Do they normally elect only "domestic level" fighters to that Hall of Fame?

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/gilroy-bert.htm

 

If you dont want to hear the truth why dont you start a thread entitled:

"Lets all talk about how great my grandpappy was"

Im not here to stroke your ego so I wont post on that. I thought when you asked for an honest assessment of the fighters you named thats what you honestly wanted. Not someone to come on here and lie to you about how great the guys who KOd Gilroy were.

If you came on here and talked about the legimately interesting domestic scene of boxing in the British Isles during this time period, and Gilroy's legitimate place in it you would get a lot more credit than pretending there was this massive domestic and international conspiracy to keep Gilroy from getting any breaks. You think Gilroy was the only fighter affected by the war? Gilroy got to fight some big name fighters both domestic and international (Mills, Wood****, Cerdan) The fact that he couldnt make more out of these matches is what it is. It would be nice to say if he got the breaks he could have been more but really when he did step up he lost so thats a tough argument to make. You constantly trumpeting the same old tune gets tired because youve never brought anything to support your claims. Railing against having to fight Cerdan even halfway close to a reasonable weight difference just sounds like (and is) ridiculous bias. Trumpeting fighters who werent even the top fighters of their weight in their country as great simply because they beat Gilroy sounds like you are trying to make a case for Bert (which you are).

 

To give you an idea of how little that means, the WBHOF which isnt even a hall, inducted in that year alone: Billy Pea****, Gil Cadilli, and Jackie Graves. These guys were all fringe contender level guys, better than Gilroy, but not HOF material by any stretch. Cadilli's only win of note was a controversial SD over ancient Willie Pep. He lost about half of his fights. Same with Pea**** who was probably the best of the bunch. He got a great HL reel jaw breaking KO over Macias but he was inconsistent even at his best. People who complain about how cheap an honor it is and how easy it is to be inducted into the IBHOF would gag at the WBHOF induction process. Just take the Joey Barnum induction. Who the **** is Joey Barnum??? He lost half of his fights and never beat anyone with the exception of a very green 15 fight nobody at the time Johnny Bratton. So if if those guys get in then yeah its not a shock, nor proof of any great ability that Gilroy made it.

 

Do you think the HOF has any credibility now? Seriously.:think

NAME ONE WORLD CLASS MAN HE BEAT ?

 

Do you have to beat a world-class boxer to be one?

Are Hassan N'Dam and Curtis Stevens "world-class" middleweights? They're in the title picture. They're rated.

Was Bert Gilroy worse than them?

I haven't seem him. I don't know. What fights of Gilroy have you seen?

Is David Lemieux world-class?

Is someone like Marco Antonio Rubio - who's challenged for the middleweight title a bunch of times and has a "paper" belt - world class?

I think most people today would consider N'Dam, Stevens, Lemieux and Rubio "world-class" middleweights - not the best in the world, not good enough to beat the top middleweight in the world (Golovkin), but definitely qualified to fight other opponents and win on the world level.

Was Bert Gilroy really worse than them? Which fights of his did you see? Were any of them wins, or did you just see his losses? It's difficult to judge a guy if you've only seen his losses.

 

Gilroy wasnt qualified to beat and win at world level because he never proved he could. I haven' t seen Gilroy.I havent seen Harry Greb either but his resume tells me he was genuinely great fighter because he regularly beat other great fighters .
Same with Rosenbloom,Dillon, Slattery. Gilroy did not EVER,he couldn't beat the best domestic fighters,let alone the world class ones.

The best he could manage was the Scottish middle and lhvy titles,and take a look at who he beat to get them and more importantly what their records are and who they in turn beat.
Every time Gilroy was beat his Grandson is there with a ready made conspiracy theory and excuse.
His account of the Wood**** v Gilroy fights doesn't jive with the one I found and posted.

How many Gilroy fights have you and his grandson seen?

 

I told you, I haven't seen any.

Do you consider Rubio, Lemeiux, N'Dam or Stevens world-class middleweights?

Do you have to beat a world-class boxer to be one?

 

No and Yes.

 

Really?

Okay. So, basically all those ranked middleweights: Peter Quillan, Matt Korobov, Marco Antonio Rubio, David Lemieux, Hassan N'Dam, Curtis Stevens, Andy Lee, Billy Joe Saunders, Jermall Charlo, hell, even Chavez Jr. (wherever he is) ... none of them are world-class middleweights because they didn't beat a "world-class" middleweight?

Was Felix Sturm a world-class middleweight, because I don't remember him beating anyone at middleweight who would fit your description of world-class?

If Sturm's not world-class, does that mean Martin Murray and Matthew Macklin aren't world-class, because they couldn't even got the nod against a guy (Sturm) who isn't world-class? Who did Murray and Macklin score a win against who was world-class?

Does that mean Soliman and Geale aren't world-class, since the biggest name they've ever defeated was Sturm?

Who has Golovkin beaten again - Stevens, Geale, Macklin ... a bunch of non-world-class fighters?

By your definition, does that mean Golovkin's not world-class?

Who's left Cotto?

Is Cotto the only world-class middleweight? Cotto wants to fight Tim Bradley next because he's afraid to fight anyone who weighs 160.

I'm sorry, I have to call bull**** on this "you have to beat a world-class fighter to be world-class."

Using your system, the only "world-class" middleweights active today are Miguel Cotto and Jermain Taylor.