Rodrigo Valdez vs Marvin Hagler

Not everyone knows who these fighters are you are naming or the era's. Flesh it out. Give a little more detail to your oppinion and why each fighter has a better resume than Hagler and why each of those decades is better.

 

By not everyone does that include yourself? I'm genuinely asking because it would be confusing how you stated your opinions with such conviction if you were so unfamiliar with MW boxers and the divisions eras. Also if that's the case then simply naming fighters they beat or guys in their era isn't going to provide much assistance in convincing you otherwise if that's the case.

For example though the two guys with the weakest resumes listed look like this

YC3 - Billy Conn, Mickey Walker, Fred Apostoli, Gus Lesnevich, Young Terry, Jackie Burke

Garcia - Lloyd Marshall x2, Fred Apostoli, Kid Azteca x2, Glen Lee, Allen Matthews, Jackie Burke x3

If you're going by quality of wins they're far superior to Hagler's but their losses mean an argument can be made for what Hagler does have as being more valuable depending on how heavily you weigh different factors.

 

I don't know all those guys. Big deal.

I barely know the guys that actaully do I know. I come here to learn. Now, how about fleshing out those fighters so I/we can learn.

He are the fighters I know from your list:

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Guys I am familiar with:

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Guys that I can discuss very little about:

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I am pretty sure that I am not the only one around here that would benefit from you or someone who does in fact have detailed knowledge of these fighter to give us there resumes and why they should be ranked over Hagler. All you have done was throw a few names out and make another statement which you have not backed up concerning the eras. I gave plenty of reason for why I rank Hagler the way I do. On top of that I think Hagler would be a tough night Robinson on down.

I rank Hagler's win over Hearns in 3 rounds one of the best achievements in boxing history. We can quell the former welterweight stuff because most of the great middleweight fought at welterweight and Tommy won a major title at Lt. Heavyweight.

Hagler reign in the 80's surpasses everything after him. 90's, 2000's, and 2010's so far. His wins line up well against Monzon's in the 70's and and Robinson's 50's.

 

A great fight :good

Hagler takes a close one over fifteen. Just that little bit better.

 

I did not intend to sound condescending or anything i'm just surprised you would state something so emphatically when you're apparently quite unfamiliar with the divisions history along with some of it's ATG's.

Well i would say you're overrating the win over Hearns to say the least but here's a bit on the three you said you didn't know.

Teddy Yarosz

Billy Conn - Conn spent about 2 years tearing through the MW division beating a whose who before moving to LHW. Yarosz fought him 3 times going 1-2 with both losses being controversial and at least one of them probably should have been the other way. They were both from Pittsburgh and Conn was the favourite son which may have been a factor in the results. This alone far exceeds the Hearns win.

Archie Moore - Moore fought at MW in the 30's as part of Murderer's Row and contrary to most fans belief many of the top white boxers did fight them, Yarosz and Overlin being two examples.

Lloyd Marshall - Another Murderer's Row member, a natural LHW like Moore and Yarosz beat him when he was already past prime right near the end of his career.

Ken Overlin x2 - beat him twice and you'll see below why it's such a quality win

Solly Kreiger - MW Champion at one point in the 30's

Vince Dundee x 3 - MW Champion who Yarosz beat to win the title going 3-0 against him.

Babe Risko - MW Champion. Yarosz went 1-2 against Risko but he broke his kneecap in one of the losses, lost again while he still had the same injury then won their third fight after getting surgery to fix his leg.

He also had wins over other solid to very good fighters from the era like Jimmy Smith, Young Terry, Tommy Freeman, Ben Jeby, Lou Brouillard, Pete Latzso

Yarosz had a somewhat strange career and most of his losses require a serious asterix beside them due to weird occurances like the broken kneecap against Risko. Another example is his loss to Georgie Abrams where he lost a 10 round split decision in a horribly dirty fight from both sides where Yarosz had 8 points deducted....8 points deducted in a 10 round fight and he lost by split decision A completely shot Abrams in 1947 was robbed against a prime SRR btw.

He only had 3 or 4 legit losses during his prime where he didn't fight the opponent multiple times and win the series, lose by very controversial SD, have an injury or some strange occurrence like i described above in a 130 fight career.


Ken Overlin

Ezzard Charles - The greatest LHW ever started out at MW and was a member of Murderer's Row he arguably had the best record or certianly win/loss ratio against elite MW's from the era compared to any other MR members. Imagine Hagler holding a win over Michael Spinks, that still wouldn't equal this win but it would be the equidistant for his own era.

Fred Apostoli - MW Champion and see below

Al Hostak - MW Champion "The Savage Slav" was one of the hardest punchers in the history of the division.

Ceferino Garcia- MW Champion who holds two wins over Row member Lloyd Marshall who was a natural LHW while Ceferino started out at WW and Fred Apostoli along with other top MW's of the day, Filipino, used the Bolo Punch before Gavilan and obviously SRL who usually get credit for it, also a monster puncher

Steve Belloise x2 - really good contender who most know from SRR beating when Steve was at the very end of his career. Overlin beat him twice in title defenses when Steve was coming off a victory over Ceferino Garcia right after Garcia lost the MW title to Overlin.

Overlin also had wins over solid contenders Erich Seelig, Ben Brown x4 (this is the guy who gave Yarosz two of his losses going 2-0 against him yet Overlin went 4-0 against Brown), Nate Bolden x2, Carmen Barth, Allen Matthews, Harry Balsamo, Ralph Chong x3.

These wins over contenders would be as good, in all reality better, than almost all of Hagler's title defenses against guys like Hamso, Obel, Roldan, Sibson, etc which leaves you trying to compare Hearns, Duran, Minter, Antuofermo, to Charles, Apostoli, Hostak, Garcia who are all Champions, HOF and/or ATG's which no person in their right mind could do.

Overlin lost twice to Billy Soose including his title with both fights being considered robberies. Here's an excerpt of what the New York Times wrote in the title loss "At times he had Soose looking more puzzled than a ******ed high school freshman writing a thesis on the quantum theory." Soose was an excellent boxer who beat a prime Tony Zale when he was reigning champion but it was a non-title fight so he didn't win the belt then.

So Overlin had about 8 prime losses, 7 coming against elite opposition with over 160 career fights. To put the losses into perspective (same for Yarosz) SRR had around 10 losses during his "MW prime" excluding several he had towards the end of his career when he was clearly past it. Considering that along with everything else he did in his prime and the insane win column it would be rather difficult to not have either of these guys inside the top 10 all time at MW imo.

They also had twice as many career fights as Hagler and did all of this while fighting 10 times a year which to me requires a far greater degree of difficulty and is a more potent measure of consistency than making 11 title defenses while fighting twice a year. That context needs to be factored into ratings when ranking fighters from different eras.

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Absolutely top-class post. The best I've read on here in a long time. I've learned a lot from just this post, thanks. :good

 

And please do Fred Apostoli.

 

Hagler by TKO much better fighter

 

Thanks man

Fred Apostoli was a 2-time National Amateur Champion and because of that experience was brought along as fast as just about anyone in history, faster than Rigo for example.

He made his debut against a 100 fight veteran then challenged Freddie Steele for the title in his 7th pro fight in a losing affair. Six months later he was beating top contenders and former Champions like Risko, Brouillard Berglund, Stuhley. His 72 fight career was pretty short by that eras standards (although still more than Hager's 67 fights) but he was fighting at a world class level right from the start which should be kept in mind.

During the 1930's Steele and Marcel Thil were the two most dominant Champions and Apostoli holds wins over both of them which are the real signature victories on his resume and he was the only man to accomplish this. I'll give some more backround on these boxers first to help highlight the significance of those wins having already touched on Steele's dominance above he is undoubtedly a top 10 ATG MW and its easier to make the argument he's inside the top 5 than outside it, deserving a 3-6 spot IMO.

Steele's dominance and 42 fight win streak is better than Ketchel, Monzon, Hagler or Hopkins and his win column is one of the best ever just a step below the very best few of Greb, Robinson, Mike Gibbons, Holman Williams Teddy Yarosz, Ken Overlin, but his superior consistency with zero loses in his prime places him above all of them besides Greb and Robinson, you could argue about him and Mike Gibbons.

Steele retired prematurely at age 25 because of a fractured brestbone which never fully healed and both of his losses including to Apostoli in their rematch happened with this injury. Apostoli still deserves tons of credit for the win though because Steele managed to beat solid contender Barth and Solly Kreiger who would become MW Champion just five months later in between those two losses before retiring because of the injury so he was still very capable if not at his best. There is some footage of this rematch and it was reported to be a brutal affair.

Marcel Thil is largely forgotten but was more accomplished than his country man Marcel Cerdan who was a popular media darling and remembered better because of it.

Thil had wins over

Vince Dundee - MW Champion

Lou Brouillard - MW Champion

Kid Tunero - an excellent Cuban fighter who beat Ezzard Charles, Holman Williams, Ken Overlin, Future LHW Champ Anton Christiforidis

Erich Seelig - German MW who held wins over Mickey Walker at the very end of his career, Ken Overlin, Kid Tunero, Glen Lee, Carmen Barth and a draw with Yarosz

Jock McAvoy - Terrific Britsh fighter with monster power who had wins over Tunero, Risko, Len Harvey, Jimmy Smith

Gorilla Jones - Very good Black MW contender in the 1930's who just came up short in title opportunities against Thil and Steele who he drew with then lost to twice in a three fight series.

Vilda Jaks - Czech 1930's MW who held wins over Kid Tunero x2 and future LHW Champion Anton Christiforidis

Gustave Roth and Ignacio Ara x3 a few other notable wins


Fred Apostoli's wins

Freddie Steele - Well detailed already

Marcel Thil - Apostoli beat him in Thil's last career fight but Marcel was reigning Champion and had beat over a half dozen top MW's in his last 10 fights. Just a case of a guy calling it quits when he loses his title after a dominant career.

Young Corbett III - MW Champion, very tricky southpaw and first lefty to be a two weightclass Champion. Natural WW but had wins over Billy Conn, Mickey Walker, Future LHW Champ Gus Lesnevich, Young Terry, Glen Lee during his short MW career which lasted less than 25 fights.

Babe Risko - MW Champion

Solly Kreiger x2 - MW Champion

Georgie Abrams - Supurb boxer who never won the title but drew with Burley and beat Cocoa Kid from the Row and had wins over MW Champions Teddy Yarosz, Soose x3, Brouillard along with top contenders Leto, Chmielewski x2, Jannazzo, Belloise, Henneberry, Raadik, Balsamo

Lou Brouillard - MW Champion who beat Mickey Walker, Young Corbett III, Jimmy McLarnin, Sammy Slaughter x2, Al Gainer x2, Swede Berglund among others

Erich Seelig - German MW who held wins over Mickey Walker at the very end of his career, Ken Overlin, Kid Tunero, Glen Lee, Carmen Barth and a draw with Yarosz

Swede Berglund - Contender who had wins over MW Champions Risko, Kreiger along with Bandit Romero x4 and Ben Jeby

Glen Lee x3 - Contender with wins over Champions Garcia and Kreiger along with Jannazzo, Balsamo, Burke

Mellio Bettina * After Apostoli lost the title to Garcia he moved up to LHW and beat Former LHW Champion Bettina

Ken Overlin - Draw

Apostoli has two losses to Billy Conn when he was tearing through the division but they were both close fights and Conn stated they were the toughest of his career and he was hurt in both of them. There is a picture of Billy after their rematch with his entire head and face wrapped in gauze like a mummy and another sometime later with bandages removed and his face still swollen.

(go to google images and type "apostoli conn " they'll come up)


So after losing to Steele in his 7th pro fight the only losses Apostoli suffered through his prime until he was dethroned by Ceferino Garcia were to :

- Ken Overlin who he drew with later in his career
- Young Corbett III who he beat in the rematch that same year going 1-1
- Two close ones with Billy Conn which Billy said were the toughest of his career

Pretty great run and can't discredit anything because of those Conn losses. Then in 1940 right after losing his title to Garcia he went 1-1 against a prime LHW Champion Melio Bettina who had just lost his title to Conn, lost to a prime Tony Zale then drew with Ken Overlin right before WWII where he served in the US Navy as a Gunner he was wounded and received a Bronze Star. After the war in 1946 he had a few more fights but his best days were behind him.

 

Awesome stuff, thanks Vsotskyy. It's a pleasure reading your posts. It's actually crazy just how deep this division is, isn't it?

It's a pity Steele had to retire so young. I first became aware of Steele around 1988, when I bought a VHS tape about the middleweight division, and he was featured (all too briefly) there.
From the first time I saw him, without knowing anything at all about him, I realised that this guy was class. You could see it right away. I'm so happy that he is enjoying a revival these days, and more and more people are becoming aware of him.

Thanks to your posts, I'm now more enlightened about a few more quality guys. I mean, I knew something about them but now I will most definitely focus a lot more on a lot of these fighters from now on.
Awesome stuff.
I love days like this, where I actually get to learn something.

 

Thanks again no problem.

Every once in a while you'll see someone insisting Marcel Cerdan is grossly overlooked and deserving of a spot inside the top 10 all time but no mention of the better Frenchman Marcel Thil. Cerdan was a very good fighter and looks good on film but his best wins were over shot post war versions of Zale, Williams and Abrams.

Shame he didn't start fighting in the US earlier but no way does he belong near the top 10 and off the top of my head i doubt there is even a case for making the top 20 guys like O'Dowd, Flowers Walker, YC3, Hostak, Garcia, Abrams, Lamotta, Tiger, Toney, MCCallum, who don't crack the top 10 deserve to be higher than him IMO.

About the depth no kidding. In Mcvey's Best MW Era thread me and Burt were listing them here's what we came up with...

(30 of the top MW's in the 30's and early 40's)

Billy Conn
Freddie Steele
Teddy Yarosz
Holman Williams
Charly Burley
Ezzard Charles
Fred Apostoli
Ken Overlin
Lloyd Marshall
Archie Moore
Tony Zale
Mickey Walker
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Booker
Billy Soose
Al Hostak
Young Corbett III
Ceferino Garcia
Solly Kreiger
Babe Risko
Vince Dundee
Marcel Thil
Lou Brouillard
Kid Tunero
Cocoa Kid
Jack Chase
Aaron Wade
Erich Seelig
Jock McAvoy
Gorilla Jones

Another 20 very good to good contenders

Swede Berglund, Shorty Hogue, Ben Jeby, Chmielewski, Kid Azteca, Ben Brown, Carmen Barth, Glen Lee, Belloise, Nate Bolden, Young Terry, Bandit Romero, Anton Christoforidis, Jimmy Smith, Ralph DeJohn,, Henneberry, Frank Battaglia, Allen Matthews, Balsamo

These guys are just after thoughts but for example Shorty Hogue went 2-1 against Archie Moore, 1-1 against Lloyd Marshall, 1-2-1 against Eddie Booker from The Row. Needless to say the era was insane.[FONT=&quot]
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I agree with the rest of the guys.

You are doing awesome work. Work, because it is work to do these kind of post on request. I need to do my research. I may need to redo my middleweight list, and that is OK.

Peace,
J

 

You grossly underestimate Valdez...I think this one could have been an upset..as the Colombian was better than Hagler's actual title challengers IMO.

 

While Hagler lost his way against Leonard, Monzon digested TNT and then bullied Valdez - it's one of the reasons I rate Carlos higher, and naturally it poses the question; what happens if you swap Ray with Rodrigo?

Could Marvin have endured another Mugabi affair with a superior technician and puncher?

At their respective bests you can expect bang for your buck. The longer levers and smother footwork of Marvin against the bobbing, short-punching Columbian. Marvin's right jab would be vital against a chap whose forehead was a little open, kind of like Napoles' but without the smooth movement. Straight punches may get the Marvellous one off to a good start.

The inevitable shift would stem from the fact Valdez's defence was tight enough to deflect head-snappers and Marvin would be easier to engage than Monzon who had a knack for teetering that long frame away. Exchanges would be forced, Hagler would eat that right with some regularity. Not so much the power but the pace Valdez could sustain, the high quality work while breathing heavy is going to cause trouble.

Force a decision and I believe the quicker Hagler from the early 80's who let the combinations flow would use his feet to cool things down when need be and land cleaner punches in the late stages of a war.

Afterwards however, Marvin would do well to rack up 12 defences.

 

Excellent posts by Vysotskyy.