Is Bob Fitzsimmons Top 5 P4P?

If Jeffries' fight was going to be stopped based on amount of punishment, then Fitz-Corbett would have been stopped in the 6th round with Corbett the winner.

As for the blow that finished Corbett, there were supporters of both versions, of course. What I saw on film was a chance blow.

An example of report:
"The victory was not gained without a struggle; in fact, victory did not seem possible for Fitzsimmons until the last moment of the battle. He was giving every indication of slowly going to pieces when he delivered a blow in a vital part, and followed it up with two others which sent the Californian to the floor with the agony of pain and despair imprinted on his face, and he was unable to rise within the limit which would save him. ... At the opening of the fourteenth and last round Corbett looked the victor. Though somewhat tired he was still strong and was displaying more science, and continued to pound the Australian and keep up the flow of the stream of blows."

George Siler (the referee):
"Corbett boxed cleverly. He landed and landed at will, and had Fitz on what to the layman appeared like "***** street." As a matter of fact, however, Julian's man was miles removed from this thoroughfare. He appeared to be worse than he really was. But he was as strong as an ox, and made up his mind to land that one punch even though it took all day to get there."

Another report:
"The great contest was won in the simplest manner, and the knock-out was the result of one unwary move on the part of Corbett."

Bat Masterson:
"As the battle proceeded I grew more certain that Fitz had a good chance to win, for I notice that he was as strong as ever, while Corbett was perceptibly weakening. I did not expect the fight to end the way it did. I thought that Fitz would wear him down and finish him in the usual style with some blow on the jaw."

 

let us not forget that Fitz, just because he managed some startling results in between the two Jeffries fights, was realistically past his best by this time. Every single other fighter (with the possible exception of Joe Louis) did their best work leading up to and winning the world title. Why in the world should Fitz who by the time of the Jeffries fights was 36 years old and coming off a virtual 2 break since his fight with corbett and after spending a year or so touring on the stage, be considered to be anywhere near his best. In fact, it is, arguably, a miracle that such a break from the business would not lead to greater ring rust. Look what a similar layoff did to Dempsey, Ali and several others. They were all a lot younger than Fitzsimmons and struggled to come back as well. If they took the break at Fitzsimmons age, they would have struggled to beat a top 10 contender. Fitz not only performed solidly against Jeffries the first time, but he then cleaned up all the contenders and took another 2 years off before he fought Jeffries the second time! The fact that he was more than competitive surely suggests that he has a pretty decent argument to better Jeffries in his prime.

Why is it that Dempsey and co are given the pass, but the jeffries fight is used as evidence that Fitz could never beat him? For comparisons sake, unless my maths is wrong (always possible) at a similar age, the usual standard bearer in these things - Sugar Ray Robinson, was losing to the likes of Ralph Jones, Paul Pender and Gene Fulmer among others. Fitz was doing things that no other middleweight or supermiddleweight could do, even in their prime (Corbett, Sharkey, Ruhlin wins).

 

Lots of spectators at ringside who voiced their opinion in post-fight reports thought that Fitz was nearly gone in the 6th round vs Corbett and would have been stopped in short order. I don't recall any reporter I read (including Naughton, Inglis, Siler, John L. Sullivan, Weldon, Whitfield) mentioning hearing anything like that (advice or decision of going for the body during the rest between 13th and 14th rounds) in Fitz's corner.

Fitz's own words after the fight:
"In the sixth round the blood was interfering with my breathing, and I played as careful as I could, hanging on when possible to avoid punishment. I knew if I could stand that round I should win. I was in pretty bad shape for a little while, but after that I never had a doubt as to my winning, for Corbett's blows were growing slower and slower every minute, while I did not feel any ill effects myself."

"I have been confident all along of my ability to whip Corbett. He gave me a hard fight, and I got considerable punishment. I waited for the time, and finally, as I could not get at his head, played for his body and finished him."

Doesn't sound like he was planning to beat Corbett by going to the body in the first place. In the other interview he claimed Corbett stepped on his foot, which caused him to trip and fall to his knees and that he spent 7 seconds to wipe his nose.
One of his seconds, Dan Hickey, stated that Fitz returned to the corner distressed at the end of the 6th round, and he had to use his ring generalship to save himself in that round. He didn't mention any planned strategy of Fitz' going to the body. Neither did Jack Stelzner, another Fitz' second, stating that "In three fights he has been almost whipped, yet he has recovered and secured victories in every one of them", he attributed the victory mostly to Fitz's recuperative powers and hitting ability.

 

Fitz after the 1st Jeffries fight (Jeffries wasn't in his prime yet):
"The best man won. I fought my hardest, but he reached me in spite of all I could do. Jeffries made a great fight, far greater than I believed he could ever do. I have no excuses to make. I suppose I might say I went in once too often, but I thought I could do what I had done with so many of them."

Fitz after 2nd fight:
"He beat me all right. He is a wonder. He had me going in the seventh. My hands were out and he had me in the wind. I hurt my hand two days ago on Griffin's head. But that doesn't make any difference. He did me. And let me tell you he is the best of them all. It wasn't that last biff in the eye that did it, it was the smash in the wind. I thought my short ribs were broken."
"He did me, but if it is the last word that I ever say I will tell you that I wasn't right the first time he put me out. I didn't know whether I was in or out of the ring after the third round. This time I was as fit as I ever was in my life. Then he was a novice. Now he is a finished fighter. I fought him the best way I knew. People may say that I ought to have kept away from him, but let me tell you that if I had he would have been after me and finished me in two rounds."
"But ain't I all right for an old man? I don't think that I ever punched anyone harder than I did him in the first four rounds, but he kept coming back."

Most of the damage in the 2nd fight was from cuts, not from punches where the impact hurt Jeffries.

 

He was cut up in several places and had his nose broken, causing his face to be covered with blood, but Fitz's best punches didn't stagger or wear Jeffries down at all, not one punch that I've seen in round-by-round reports. It was Fitz who was tiring quickly from body punishment inflicted by Jeffries, not Jeffries getting tired and slowed down by Fitz' punches. Fitz did the external, more visible damage, while Jeffries did the internal one, which gradually switched the fight in his favour.

 

You have read the round-by-round and the post-fight observations in Adam's book? The fight was very different from Ali-Chuvalo and Holmes-Cobb and Dempsey-Willard. Jeffries was doing a lot of body punishment, how much of that did Siler pay attention to (I mentioned him regarding the Corbett bout, not the Jeffries-Fitz 2)? None. That's why you need to read multiple different reports of the fight.
As for him being 40 years old, I recall Fitz himself saying in mid-thirties I think that he was certain that the current version of him would have beaten the one 10-years younger. He never relied on speed and clever footwork. Do you think the Fitz that faced Jeffries the second time would have taken 13 rounds and how many KD's to finish past-prime Dempsey, who had previously been KO'd by one punch by another fighter?

 

Didn't punch as hard and was not as good as he had been when exactly? And by how much?
Let's return to my original quote

As can be seen from my statement, I'm comparing the Fitz that fought Corbett and who fought Jeffries the 1st time, and I don't think there was much difference. The quote I remember from Fitz must be from around the same time, when he was in mid-30s.

Which versions of Fitz are you comparing and based on what, other than his age?

Mansfield News, I suppose that's the Ohio newspaper, not the MA or PA ones. There's over 2000 miles between SF and the Ohio town. Why not read what San Francisco newspapers wrote on the 2nd fight? Quoting Adam's book: "Other papers, such as the Evening Post and the Bulletin, focused on the fact that Jeffries had worn Fitzsimmons down with effective body blows and his relentless non-stop attack. These newspapers gave Jeff more credit in their round-by-round descriptions and analysis. Jeffries had employed his determined hard-punching strategy and it worked, having stopped Fitzsimmons 3 rounds sooner than he did in their first fight. However, this time, Jeff fought as an attacker, whereas in their first fight, he boxed more cautiously and defensively." And based on round-by-round reports Jeff started throwing and landing hard body blows from the very 1st round.

Ok, word 'never' may have been too much, I wasn't saying Fitz wasn't relying on footwork at all. If you read the analysis of Fitz's style, stated by different experts at different stages of his career, he was almost always the aggressor, going forward and throwing punches, not exactly a swarmer, but not an outfighter or boxer-puncher in either offense or defense. Jeffries wasn't particularly fast in his footwork while boxing (running is another matter), he was pressing Fitz slowly and methodically. That's the only reason why Fitz had a chance to show some footwork in evading his attacks. Kind of like is the case with Gene Tunney whom many consider a dancing master in the ring, which he wasn't, that wasn't his typical style.

A punch is a punch. It's not like LaBlanche KO'd him with a kick, did he? A back-hander like that is not much different from a swing. The point is Fitz was landing punches in bunches, of the hardest kind, but had to inflict a lot of damage and score plenty of KD's in order to stop much smaller Dempsey. Are you saying he was a better boxer and puncher back then when he was 27, than he was for Corbett (33 years) or Jeffries (36 years)?

 

Next Senya is going to be arguing about how featherfisted Fitzsimmons was, how his hair was actually black and thick and lustrous, and how his freckles were just paint dabs.