Is Bob Fitzsimmons Top 5 P4P?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Aug 29, 2014.


  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    They were heavyweights as the adjective was applied in those days.
    Maher, Goddard ,Jeffries,Ruhlin,Sharkey were not Smw's or Lhv's
    .Maher outweighed Fitz by 15lbs,Corbett by17lbs,Sharkey by18lbs,,Jeffries by39 &47lbs,Ruhlin by37lbs. Fitz was 158lbs for the Ruhlin fight what weight division is that ?

    Fitz was robbed of the win over O Brien just as he was in one of his fights with Sharkey.

    1904-07-23
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    Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
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    Baker Bowl, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USAWTKO66
    time: 1:22
    Captain Hamm stopped the fight after Fitzsimmons caught O'Brien with a straight left hand punch to the chin that floored him in the sixth and last round. The timekeeper clanged the bell ending the fight as soon as he saw the Captain. It was said that the officials stopped the fight to prevent O'Brien getting knocked out. Watches around ringside noted there were 1 minute and 38 seconds left in the round. New York Times The Philadelphia Item said that "O'Brien outboxed Bob Fitzsimmsonl" It would appear that Fitzsimmons won
     
  2. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Fitz didn't beat Jeffries.
    I said "most of the ranked hws", not all.
    Fitz wasn't 158 pounds for Ruhlin fight. Other weight differences are questionable as well, if you look up actual reports or see what Adam wrote in his book, he quoted different newspapers often giving different weights, they were estimations or the numbers given out by the fighter himself or by his manager, they didn't have official weigh-ins for heavyweight fights.

    Fitz wasn't robbed of a win over O'Brien. O'Brien was in condition to continue the fight, and the newspapers accounted for the last round in giving their decisions (giving the round to Fitz, of course). It was a newspaper draw.
    You can only make a claim of robbery for Fitz's fight with Sharkey and his draw with Joe Choynski in Boston.
     
  3. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    The bell rang early with O Brien on the floor.
    At O Brien's insistance the fight was in his home town.
    O Brien decided the weight they would box at.
    The fight was postponed then cancelled Fitz ceased his preparations ,meanwhile O Brien trained secretly down in Atlantic city,several weeks later with Fitz out of shape he was notified the fight was on again,he accepted the bout floored O Brien and the bell was rung before the round was even half over. That says the odds were stacked against Fitz and that he was robbed of victory to me. I dont expect you to go along with it I've seen nothing but negatives from you on the subject of Fitzsimmons and would not waste my time trying to convince you.
     
  4. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    O'Brien wasn't on the floor when the bell rang.

    I have multiple different next-day accounts of the fight and not one of them lists the result as a KO/TKO win for Fitzsimmons. They take into account that the round was stopped before 3 minutes had gone, but score the fight as they would a typical 6-round fight that had gone the full distance. They all differ on the time of stoppage, but the majority thought that the round was cut short by less than a minute.


    Here's Philadelphia Inquirer's version of the last round:

    Round 6.--Fitz took the aggressive, landing on O'Brien's face, bringing the claret. O'Brien's foot work showed that he was rapidly tiring. Fitz caught him going away with a right handed swing on the body and he went to the floor. Fitz went at him as soon as he regained his feet, and while in a mix-up the bell sounded. The round was cut short over a minute.
    Had the bout gone to a finish Fitzsimmons would have won, just as he won from Corbett at Carson City. But the agreement was to box six rounds. O'Brien clearly had the better of the first three rounds; Fitz all the better of the last three. A draw would not have been an unjust decision to either man.


    Philadelphia Record (which scored the bout for Fitz):
    Shaking hands, the men began the sixth and last round with a vigorous exchange of lefts. Fitz hooked Jack near the left eye, starting a stream of blood, and them smashed him with his left. O'Brien came back with left and right and got a right in the ribs and then a left on the chin that caused him to stagger a few steps and then sit down hard. O'Brien was up in an instant, but here the fight was stopped.


    According to Left Hook of New York Morning Telegraph (who scored the bout for Fitz) the time was 2 minutes and 28 seconds when the bout was terminated. He remarked that at the time of the stoppage: "O'Brien's head was wobbling from three wallops to the jaw, and Fitz had a whale discounted for blowing." Here's his version of the last round:

    ROUND SIX--Fitz had three minutes in which to make good. He fought like a whirlwind. He reached O'Brien with a terrific left to the face, dropping Jack. O'Brien was up immediately and rushed at Fitzsimmons like a crazy man, landed both hands, but with little effect. Then a hard right and left to the jaw sent Bob to one knee, but he was up like a flash and put a lefthand hook to the stomach and a right to the jaw. O'Brien shivered like a reed in a gale, but had enough left to tin can.
    Fitz followed him, sending left and right after him, but was wild. Then came the mix-up that ended in Capt. Hannon's stopping the contest. Some one had just yelled "Only a minute more, Bob."
    Fitz went sailing in. He straightened up Jack with a clout on the cut eye, missed a right swing and landed one of those famous left-handed half hooks to the middle. The blow only traveled a few inches, but it left O'Brien with a face as white as chalk and with just enough sense to hang on. Bob fought to free himself and Crowhurst had to strugle to get them apart.
    As they shaped up after the break Jack started a jab and Fitz sent him to his heels with a straight left counter to the jaw.
    It was good betting that O'Brien would go out in the next wallop, when up went the club of Capt. Hannon, thirty-two seconds before the ending of the round.


    New York Sun scored the bout a draw and noted that the bout was cut short only by 25 seconds. Here's how it described the 6th round:

    Sixth Round--Bob scored with the left often, but O'Brien evened things up by catching Fitz on the chin with a hard uppercut. Fitz hooked the right on the back of the head, and also caught Jack on the kidneys with the same glove. All O'Brien could do was to jab. Both were bleeding from the mouth. O'Brien kept coming and nailed Bob on the chin. Fitz planted the right on the heart and after reaching the jaw got a crack on the same spot with the left. Fitz got to the heart again and O'Brien went down. He was up smartly and held on, saving himself.

    It also noted in the fight description: "As the fight progressed Fitz grew stronger and more confident. Many of the spectators would have been pleased to see the bout go a half dozen more rounds, as the fight was becoming very exciting when the final gong sounded."
    Do you think they'd want additional rounds if it looked like O'Brien was finished?


    New York Times:
    His arbitrary act was necessitated by Fitzsimmons putting too much force into a straight left-hand lead, which caught O'Brien flush on the chin as he was coming in. The blow sent the Quaker City middle-weight staggering to the ropes, where he went down. Fearing a knockout, the bout was stopped. With watches around the ringside the round had one minute and thirty-eight seconds to go. There was only one official timekeeper and as he was in O'Brien's corner he was not accessible after the contest.
    ...
    Despite all orders before the bout began, both sailed in to finish the contest in short order in the sixth round. This was O'Brien's undoing. While both realized the virtue of the old axiom that it was more pleasant to give than receive, yet Fitzsimmons was quite willing to take a punch to give one. In this he succeeded. After 1 minute and 22 seconds of the round had been fought, O'Brien essayed to lead, Fitzsimmons judged the distance to a nicety and caught him on the point of the chin. The blow had plenty of force, as O'Brien went down. At this juncture the episode occurred which ended the bout.


    New York Herald (scored a draw):
    Within a minute of the sixth round the bell sounded announcing the conclusion of the bout between "Bob" Fitzsimmons and "Philadelphia Jack" O'Brien at Philadelphia Park this afternoon.
    ...
    Sixth Round.--Fitzsimmons led with a left, but missed. He landed the same blow a second later and then drove a left to the wind, which took some of the steam out of O'Brien. "Fitz" opened a cut over "Jack's" left eye and then drove his right to the wind. O'Brien landed right and left to the face, but the blows lacked power. "Fitz" landed a right to the jaw and O'Brien countered with a left to "Fitz's" damaged mouth. Both men were bleeding profusely. O'Brien slipped to the floor in attempting to get away from Fitzsimmons's right. "Fitz" landed a light left to the wind and "Jack" countered with a left to the mouth. The men were clinched as the gong sounded. As the men walked to their corners O'Brien's left eye had a hasty gash over it and Fitzsimmons' left eye was almost closed.


    Robert Edgren of New York Evening World (scored the bout a draw):
    Jack O'Brien has achieved a unique distinction. He is the only middleweight who ever fought the great Bob Fitzsimmons and failed to crawl out at the little end of the horn before the time limit.
    How did he do it?
    Like Kipling's "Fuzzy Wuzzy," he showed himself to be "a first-class fighting man."
    He fought the freckled terror of the ring from the first to the last tap of the brazen gong. It makes no difference that a solicitous Philadelphia police captain, thinking "Philadelphia Jack" to be tottering on his last legs, caused the final round to be shortened by thirty-five seconds to save him from a knockout.
    Fifteen seconds later O'Brien, clean-sponged of blood and battle stain, spry and exultant, danced from the ring.
    "I'm after that middle-weight championship next," he sang out as he passed me.
    If O'Brien was being whipped like the ancient Britons who caused Caesar so much disgust, he "didn't know it."


    Chicago Inter Ocean (a draw):
    A most unfortunate occurence was the cutting short of the last round by Police Captain Hamm. Fitzsimmons partisans are loud in their declarations that this was done to save O'Brien from being beaten. When the gong sounded O'Brien was a little tired, but he was not in the slightest danger of being knocked out. The round was thirty-five seconds short.
    ...
    Round 6--Each resorted to left jabs, and O'Brien started Fitz's wounds all bleeding afresh, so that the old fellow's face was a mask of red. Fitz missed a right jolt at the body, but planted a hot left hook on O'Brien's right eye, cutting it open and making it bleed freely. O'Brien hooked his right on Fitz's bad left eye and half closed it. Fitz jumped in with a heavy right smash on the short ribs. O'Brien rushed, landed left on the head, and Fitz clinched. Fitz rushed O'Brien now, seemingly growing stronger every moment. He drove his right deep again on the short ribs. He dashed at O'Brien, a perfect picture of fury. He drove a straight right on the mouth. O'Brien staggered back two steps and fell on his knees. He was up within three seconds, clear eyed and grinning defiance, rushed at Fitz and jabbed him under the eye. It was here that the police stopped the fight.
     
  5. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Denver Post:
    Instead of being a scientific boxing bout, as a great many had expected, the six-round go between Bob Fitzsimmons and Jack O'Brien at the Philadelphia ball grounds this afternoon was as hard a fight as has been seen in these parts for many a day and was sufficiently so to warrant Police Captain Hamm ordering the last round cut short 15 seconds.
    The captain, however, explained that this was not done to save either man, although both were badly bruised, but was done in order to overcome any action that may be taken by the clergy or others opposed to boxing. Judged by the punishment dealt out by both, the only reasonable decision would be a draw.
    ...
    Round 6--Fitz jabbed and O'Brien returned the compliment. Jack jabbed his left to face twice and Fitz countered with his left to the face, opening a cut over O'Brien's left eye. A straight right stopped Bob momentarily and jarred him. O'Brien landed two stiff punches in the face and they exchanged lefts to the face. Both were too tired to take advantage of the opening. O'Brien ran into a straight right and in endeavoring to steady himself, slipped down. He was on his feet in an instant and the men were plugging away at each other at the bell.


    Cincinnati Enquirer:
    Covered with blood, his mouth lengthened an inch or more by the gash made in it by his opponent's glove and with his wicked little close-set eyes gleaming like a cat's in the night, "Old Man" Fitzsimmons, the dean of the fighting corps, hung over Jack O'Brien poised for a quick finish wallop, when a brace of policemen bounded over the ropes and stopped the fight at the National League Park here to-day.
    There were but 30 seconds left of the last round when this intrusion on the part of the police closed the contest, and there are those who doubt that Fitzsimmons could have landed the knockout he had been nursing, but that he had the younger man whipped, beaten, mastered in everything except youth was only too evident, even to the four score women who sat about the ringside.
    When the bout was stopped it was all in Fitzsimmons's favor. He had put O'Brien down several times. The fight was a furious one from start to finish.
    ...
    SIXTH ROUND--Fitz got home left on face and chopped right on left eye, cutting a deep gash. Fitz got in a right uppercut. O'Brien rushed him to corner, Fitz blocking cleverly, as he rushed in. Fitz landed hard over the heart. Both exchanged rights in clinch. Fitz landed left and right in clinch. Fitz landed left on face and knocked O'Brien to floor with right. It was more of a shove than a punch. O'Brien was up in an instant. They were both fighting fast but Fitz was much stronger than O'Brien, who was satisfied to take the defensive. Left on the jaw made O'Brien groggy and when a knockout seemed inevitable the police stopped the bout. The round was just about up and the bell rang as the police jumped into the ring. This was Fitz's round. It was a great battle. Fitzsimmons had the best of two rounds. O'Brien had the best of the first. The others were even.


    I have a few more, but you won't believe them either, will you?
     
  6. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Did Denver, Cincinnati, Chicago, and all of those New York papers you list even have a warm body on site to report on the match? Seems unlikely.

    Of the newspapers that appear to have actually had an onsite representative its clear that O'Brien benefitted greatly from the early termination of the bout whether he was on the canvas or not. When you constantly harry these minor quibbles that in no way change the overall narrative of the fight it really reveals the odd bias you have for/against some fighters.
     
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  7. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Denver Post printed a wire, but it was a large and detailed one, clearly written by someone who was present, probably from one of Philadelphia papers, as Otto Floto had had connections. Cincinnati Enquirer often re-printed Philadelphia Record reports on bouts held in Philadelphia (at least during the early 1900s for which the Record is available at Google archives), but this time it used the Hearst News Service report. Chicago Inter Ocean seemed to have Lou Houseman at ringside, although it possibly borrowed the round-by-round description from another Phila newspaper. I see nothing unusual in New York newspapers sending their reporters to Phila to report on a big fight (and Fitz and O'Brien were big names). Left Hook was there, as was Robert Edgren. NY Herald's report was re-printed in Chicago Tribune as well. I also have the Associated Press report (different from all above), another unsigned one (containing "the writer was within six feet of the men when the gong sounded and watching O'Brien with great care. He was a little tired, but he was not in the slightest danger of being knocked out. The round was thirty-five seconds short.") and Brooklyn Eagle (stating that "thirty full seconds were chopped off the final round", it had borrowed the round-by-round from another source, but the rest of the report is genuine, not a wire or re-written version of any of the above).
     
  8. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    New York Telegraph quoted the following persons from ringside expressing their opinion about the winner:
    O’Brien – Kid McCoy, Bat Masterson, George Grant, Tom O’Rourke, Yank Kenny, Kid Broad, Sandy Ferguson, Pat Early (of Hot Springs, AK), Brooklyn Jimmy Carroll, Eddie Fitzgerald
    Fitzsimmons – John Considine, Billy McLeary (of Cincinnati), Young Corbett, Australian Jimmy Ryan, Patsy Kerrigan, Jim Wakeley, Jack Fleming

    The referee expressed his opinion that it was a draw.
     
  9. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Philadelphia Press scored it a draw. Public Ledger scored 3-2-1 in favor of Fitz. Philadelphia Item scored for O'Brien.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I believe them and they bear out what I say, the round was cut short to save O Brien from a ko defeat.. The result might have warranted a draw but the police interference changed the course of the fight.

    I find your interpretation totally irrational and illogical and am forced to conclude that ,as Klompton says you have a distinct bias against Fitzsimmons.
     
  11. Cmoyle

    Cmoyle Active Member Full Member

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    FYI. I just finished 'The Choynski Chronicles' by Christoper LaForce and while there are many accolades given to Fitzsimmons throughout the book, and numerous quotes from fighters concerning his punching power, Choyinski was critical of him at times. On page 727 I came across the following:

    "In June, 1941, George W. "Biddy" Bishop previously a fight promoter, manager, referee, second and sports editor of the Tacoma Daily News, said, of the late Bob Fitzsimmons: "I...handled the Cornishman in more than half a dozen battles, and I saw him in all of his many moods. He was a master fighter - but, emphatically he did not fancy the idea of being hurt.

    I handled Fitzsimmons' corner in his fight with Philadelphia Jack O'Brien...Dec. 20, 1905. Fitz quit in the 14th round, refused...to go out when the going rang and continue on. He was not seriously hurt...nowhere near being finished. When Fitz boxed Peter Maher in New Orleans, March 2, 1892, he won on 12 rounds, yet he insisted on quitting in the 6th. It was all his seconds Jimmy Carroll, Alex Greggains and Joe Choyinski could do to get him up for the next round. In the 6th round of his memorable battle with Jim Corbett, whom he knocked out in the 14th, Fitz...was being counted on one knee when he was forced to get up, only in response to the frantic screams of his wife, Rose Julian... Fitzsimmons, boxing men much heavier than himself, did take terrific punishment on numerous occasions, but these other incidents...are recited just to let the ring fan judge for himself." Bishop's testimony validates some things Choyinski said about Ruby Bob in the past - and in the near future.
     
  12. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    He still ended up winning two of those three bouts by KO and lost the other when he was 42. Maybe he was a front runner or didnt like to "take it" but it doesnt seem to have hampered his effectiveness any.
     
  13. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You can't even read both parts of one long post (which I had to split in two because of 10K char limitation on the forum), and you are accusing me of being irrational and illogical?
    I don't have any bias. The only reason why I originally questioned Fitz's mw championship of the world, less than two months ago, was another historian asking my opinion about Nonpareil Jack Dempsey, of when had he become the world champion, and looking through my scrap-books on Dempsey I didn't find any bout that would suit the requirements of being for world championship. Not that he didn't fight any opponents from other countries, but that they were not the champions of their country. Many still considered him the world champ, during those time it was a matter of claiming the title and the experts agreeing or disagreeing with it. But you can't just pick, say, an ordinary Canadian fighter, beat him and claim you have won the world championship, it shouldn't work like that. After that I was forced to look through the records of subsequent champions to find a bout that would suit my needs, to answer that historian's question.
     
  14. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I'd be wary to trust Bishop's words so easily. I don't know about him and Fitz, but he had a bad reputation as a manager of Aurelio Herrera. He was accused of crookedness, staging some fake fights that seriously hurt boxing in Salt Lake City (UT) and Butte (MT) in early 1900s.
     
  15. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    It doesnt matter what it should or shouldnt work like. You cant apply 21st standards to a 19th century situation. That was the wild west of boxing championships. Particularly "world championships" which in itself was a relatively new idea. You cant minimize the idea that a fighter was "generally recognized" as a world championship at the time by his peers because YOU dont think it should work like that. Irregardless whether or not he was a "world" champion has no bearing on whether or not he was a lock for p4p great consideration.