I'm not going to go mental with this, but here's a brief outline of my thinking. RECORD AND RECENT RECORD: Ward is 27-0 but Gonzalez has moved to 40-0, Ward has fourteen knockouts, Gonzalez has 34. Recently though, it's all Ward. Ward has legal difficulties and he has injuries, but not of that stops the hands of time nor progress. Since Ward beat Dawson at 168lbs in late 2012, Gonzalez has beaten eight men, and although a lot of those fights were stay-busy, they include Francisco Rodriguez Jnr, now the #1 contender and #1 fighter in the champion-less 105lb division and Juan Estrada, who has become the #1 contender to the title held by Yaegashi and now by Roman Gonzalez - Gonzalez having beaten Yaegashi today. Estrada is now in my p4p top ten, Yaegashi was until Gonzalez picked him off. So even if we leave aside Gonzalez's lesser competition - and some of them such as Oscar Blanquet were good - since Ward-Dawson, Gonzalez has beaten three indisputably world class fighters, Yaegashi, Estrada and Rodriguez Jnr. It is reasonable to compare Ward's best wins to Roman's even though they arguably lie beyond any recent snapshot's remit. Kessler, Froch and Dawson are likely his finest wins. I suspect there is very little in that, but I think Estrada is the best of the bunch as an actual fact and certainly is better than Ward at 168 and Froch full stop. Ward's other top wins - Abraham, Bika, Rodriguez - compare favourably to Roman's next clutch, but for Gonzalez a great deal of travel was required - both around the world (to Japan to take on Niida and Takayama) as well as through the weights... WEIGHT JUMPING: Ward: none. Gonzalez has shown bulldozer at three different weights between 105 and 112, three different weights, but close together enough that we can't over-burden him with credit. Still, Gonzalez has some thirteen more wins under his belt than Ward and these were earned at three different weight classes. Terrifyingly, Gonzalez has never looked physically better than he did against Yaegashi and it's likely he's only now, at twenty-seven, found his best weight. For Ward, it's home in every sense, with no travelling done either in the world or the weights. DOMINANCE: This does tie in with the above; Gonzalez has dominance at three different weights and that must be accounted for. Overall though, there's nothing in this. Many have Gonzalez-Estrada close, though, so it could be suggested that Ward has the edge - then again, Gonzalez's dominance is stretched over many more fights. SKILLSET: Ward would be rated the physical superior of Gonzalez were it not for Gonzalez's vastly superior power which, again, he has carried through multiple weights. This confuses matters. Ward has the better defence, Gonzalez has the better offence. Very little to decide this, especially with some questions hanging over Ward. In the end, it's probably a question of how far you allow the string to go back. If you allow Ward's accumulated excellence to go all the way back to 2009 the edge must go to him. But Gonzalez's recent excellence is the peach for me. You will slide if you don't fight - Ward is a once a year man, whatever the reason. Gonzalez has fought more than Ward in 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 - he's beaten three world-class fighters since Ward beat Dawson. He has the momentum and for me it's time to move Gonzalez to the #2 birth. 01 - Floyd Mayweather 02 - Roman Gonzalez 03 - Andre Ward 04 - Manny Pacquiao 05 - Wladimir Klitschko 06 - Timothy Bradley 07 - Juan Manuel Marquez 08 - Guillermo Rigondeaux 09 - Carl Froch 10 - Juan Francisco Estrada
You make a lot of sense. Not sure whether I agree or disagree he's number 2, but Gonzalez is easily top 5 for me, and anyone who doesn't have him in the top 10 is ******ed. Another factor that works for Gonzalez and against Ward is a willingness to travel to foreign soil to get the job done in enemy territory (he beat Yaegashi, Niida and Takayama in Japan) and Estrada on neutral ground, whereas Ward has never left the US and barley left his home state.
P4P is such a mythical thing. I felt Gonzalez should have been noticed more previously. I cant understand how Ward is #2. It baffles me completely. Im sure P4P is often down to popularity. How can Ward be above Wlad Klitschko? People tell me an 0 doesnt mean anything and wlad hasnt lost for years and has made many defences. Look at how a while back D Haye won WBC WBA WBO Ring CW titles and the WBA HW title all within around 24 fights and often away and wasnt in the P4P list when many fighters who had done far less were
Ok I am goi g to be honest here and admit to not seeing Gonzalez fight but after the weekend on Monday morning I will find him somewhere on the Internet . Great thread opening by the way
Totally agree mate. The problem is lower weights don't get as much publicity. Aside from Calderón there aren't many lower fighters who get lauded as p4p talents.
Segura made it into the p4p, almost universally as I remember, and Viloria made the TBRB p4p list. But generally speaking you're right.
Yaegashi does wonders for Gonzalez's resume, which now goes 3 divisions deep (although 108 was ultimately a disappointing stay for Roman based on opposition caliber).
There's nothing unreasonable here. I'd add that I always thought Viloria got the shite end of the stick when a guy like Segura was ranked for beating Calderon and Viloria seemed to get a bit of the brush off for turning Segura into the baby from Family Guy.
Back in 2010 or 2011 i think i made 2-3 threads about Gonzalez and u guys just don't care about him lol i knew he was going to be good and look at him now 1. FMJ 2. Ward 3. Pac 4. Timbo 5. Rigo/Roman (can't decide, but i bumped JMM already
Top post, Mac! I think your line of thinking is right, there needs to be a cap on how much credit Ward gets for long bygone deeds. If we are to accept this being a "what have you done for me lately" sport then Choc is slaying him.
If he can beat Ali Raymi in his next fight, I think it's safe to say he will dislodge Mayweather as number 1. :good
Oh yeah, Mr. Fancy Pants? :tong Here is your first ever mention of him on here: (dated 8/29/10...good call by the way, it might actually be happening now over four years later if the Aztec Warrior gets past El Gallo tomorrow!) Read 'em and weep, however...my first couple of mentions of Gonzalez on this forum (all occurring well before yours): (dated 3/5/2010) [okay I was kind of wrong about Bogere ...the rest, though...] (dated 12/16/09) (dated 1/27/09) I was Team Chocolatito before there was a Team Chocolatito. I can live with this.