Is Louis's 25 title defenses the greatest accomplishment in boxing?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bokaj, Sep 12, 2014.


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  1. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The fact that Wlad's title isn't even the richest prize in boxing, let alone all sports, gives a bit of perspective here.
     
    Bokaj, Sep 13, 2014
    Bokaj, Sep 13, 2014
    #31
  2. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Can I add a small caveat to that one, Chris?

    I've often wondered about Schmeling's state of mind going into that one. For one thing, he was fighting in a country hostile to him and in front of a crowd very hostile to him.

    The other point is that his wife was pretty much held prisoner by the Nazi's to guarantee his return to Germany after the fight. I can only imagine how he must have worried about her.

    No fighter that I can recall has had to fight under such stressful conditions. I don't know if it hindered his performance or not, but I can only imagine that it must have.
    It was a great victory for Joe, but what was Max's mental state like?
     
    fists of fury, Sep 13, 2014
    fists of fury, Sep 13, 2014
    #32
  3. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    The difference in that case is nil.

    Both were defending their position as number 1 HW and whether the title held is lineal or ibf, it doesn't make a difference.
     
    lufcrazy, Sep 13, 2014
    lufcrazy, Sep 13, 2014
    #33
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Nah, that won't wash. The problem is, opinion can be divided about who the top heavyweight in the world is at any given time is just that, a matter of opinion, and picking Wlad is definitely reasonable.

    But if some total joker had wandered up to Sonny Liston with a belt in after he beat Eddie Machen when Patterson was on the throne, or if someone chucked a belt after he beat Hart, both would have titles and claims to being the #1 heavy in the world at that time. In this case, there are plenty of people who will be ready to tell you that Wladimir wasn't the #1 heavy when his brother came back because his brother is better. There are a lot of these guys - and there's nothing to fight them off with but your opinion that he's better.

    More than that, you'd be pretty much alone in seeing Wlad having "broken the record", wouldn't you? I mean some are counting his defences of belts, some are counting from Chagaev, some are counting from Povetkin, it's a confusing disgrace as it is - who else is counting from Byrd?
     
    McGrain, Sep 13, 2014
    McGrain, Sep 13, 2014
    #34
  5. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Fair points. Suffice to say, the lights shone bright on both of them that night.
     
    ChrisPontius, Sep 13, 2014
    ChrisPontius, Sep 13, 2014
    #35
  6. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    By that reckoning hasn't been a champion since Ali retired.

    people can claim all they want but being the number 1 is still the number 1. That means more than whether a title is lineal or not. Louis beat Braddock to get top spot, Wlad beat Byrd to get top spot.

    The only reason I'd be alone is because most people will actually include the WBO reign. That's why Chavez is lauded for all of his title defences despite not ever being undisputed champion. I choose not to count defences when someone isn't number 1 but what does my opinion matter in the big scheme of things?

    Despite my view on world boxing, and indeed yours, Broner is still paraded as a 3 weight champion, hell Butler is about to be the quickest 2 weight champion from our shores (although we may not share them for much longer!).

    so for me I wouldn't say it fair to compare the WBO reign, but i would have no issues with them talking about his consecutive defences from Byrd. That will be the way Louis retains his record actually consecutive defences. Like Boxed pointed out, Wlad would need another 5 years to break that record.
     
    lufcrazy, Sep 13, 2014
    lufcrazy, Sep 13, 2014
    #36
  7. brb

    brb Boxing Addict Full Member

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    brb, Sep 13, 2014
    brb, Sep 13, 2014
    #37
  8. brb

    brb Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It's ludicrous to think Wlad (or any other fighter) should have to grab all of the belts first before making a single Undisputed Champion defense. Total nonsense.

    The defenses should be counted since the fighter wins the belt and if the fighter wins all of the other belts (very, very rarely does this happen) then the previous defenses should count.

    Wlad would be the only fighter in history (dating back to 1989) to hold all of the 4 major belts in the HW division.
     
    brb, Sep 13, 2014
    brb, Sep 13, 2014
    #38
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    There's a new champ whenever the #1 meets the #2. It works so so well that rule. When I started with the TBRB I argued for a championship class, with fighters admitted to that class by majority vote, but they held strong over #1 v #2; it is a tough championship policy but it works, and there is now a HW champ.

    Interesting that you say Louis and Braddock. Louis said, after that fight, "gentelmen, you can't call me the champion until I beat Max Schmeling." Louis jumped the queue. The only reason the majority disagreed with him - with Louis - was that he held the lineal title. That's it. That's all.

    The problem with this "Who is #1 idea" is that it belongs more in the realm of opinion. As I said - Wlad arguably ceased to be the #1 heavyweight when Vitali came back. Why? Because Vitali could be favoured to beat him, and was, by many.
     
    McGrain, Sep 13, 2014
    McGrain, Sep 13, 2014
    #39
  10. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Me. That's when I felt Wlad really won the title. I don't know how many defences that is - a lot - but not really that close to Louis I don't think.
     
    fists of fury, Sep 13, 2014
    fists of fury, Sep 13, 2014
    #40
  11. Vanboxingfan

    Vanboxingfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Lopez did pretty much the same thing Louis did, but because of the weightclass he fought in it gets overlooked.
     
    Vanboxingfan, Sep 13, 2014
    Vanboxingfan, Sep 13, 2014
    #41
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Fair do, he did beat the guy ranked #1, but he himself was ranked in the bottom half of the ten at that time.

    Seems a hell of a way to start a new lineage, #1 v #8.
     
    McGrain, Sep 13, 2014
    McGrain, Sep 13, 2014
    #42
  13. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    No that's not historically the case mate, as I'm sure you well know. It's a good ideal but it isn't the be all and end all. And using that criteria, the only champ after Ali left was tyson when he beat spinks.

    Vitali would have beaten him, I believe that, but he relinquished his claim immediately,
     
    lufcrazy, Sep 13, 2014
    lufcrazy, Sep 13, 2014
    #43
  14. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Robinson started the lineage in similar fashion.
     
    lufcrazy, Sep 13, 2014
    lufcrazy, Sep 13, 2014
    #44
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Tyson took the title from Spinks. Lineage is specifically why they wanted him in the ring, despite the fact that he had been stripped. Ali-Holmes-Spinks-Tyson-Douglas-Holyfield. Unbroken lineage.

    And what is it that Vitali relinquished his claim to? He held a belt from the moment he came back until the moment he retired...
     
    McGrain, Sep 13, 2014
    McGrain, Sep 13, 2014
    #45
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