Why Tyson Isnt An ATG

Look again.. He was gone from 1990-1996. He came back, fought a few tomato cans and then lost in one round to Lou Savarese.

Tyson unified the titles and established lineal in his early 20's. He flattened an entire division. Wlad spent most of his career holding title fragments and sharing a division with his brother, Lennox Lewis or some other belt holder(s). That's not domination.

Tyson was 19-23 years old, standing 5'11", 217 lbs and dominated an entire division of much larger and well established heavyweights - some of them prime some of them a bit past it. But his opposition was better than Wlad's regardless. Wlad had advantages in both size and age and over at least two of his conquerors and got his ass handed to him. Tyson's legacy was already sealed before fighting Douglas.

 

Tyson start was a historical precedent.

wlads finish is against guys who gass out in 5 - which is a precedent too, its the first time the title has been consistently dumbed to subdomestic lvl.

what were you saying, btw?

 

This is not about Tyson v Wlad. This about you being a disingenuous, agenda-driven poster with little of actual substance to contribute.
Damn right I will call you on that.

 

He's certainly an ATG. He ticks all the boxes - at his best a nightmare H2H for ANYONE of his own era and also of the past and present - by accomplishment (titles, defenses, unified, undisputed & domination) - and by his standing in the minds of other fighters and athletes. In an era of large or larger heavyweights he was essentially a short and short-limbed fighter so that his other attributes had to be compensatory and they obviously were. His two handed punching power, ability to take a great shot, quickness, and toughness enabled him to give away height and reach and still prevail. His success was so early and total, his fame so widespread and complete, and his stature so iconic that it proved to be his undoing - a victim of his own successes - rather than imperiled by some great ring rival or challenger(s).

I don't think so. Frankly, I would conclude that it is more an indictment of those (few?) that contend he isn't an ATG than anything more. That it happens on a site devoted to fans of boxing makes it more of a discussion exercise for many. For those that actually state with certainty that he is not an ATG - they simply are not credible.

The greatest weakness of this site (and many like it) is the demographic - in my opinion. An example from the US makes the point. In the 1920s about one in a thousand African-Americans went to college. The opportunities to get a college education didn't even get much of a start UNTIL the 1960s after a fight against segregation and discrimination. Beyond the various de facto periods of a color line in boxing, African-Americans were unable (not allowed) to be integrated into professional basketball, football, and baseball until essentially the start of the 1950s.

Once the color line was broken, decade by decade, the opportunity to get a college education was availed to African-Americans that excelled in football and basketball in particular. The trends were clearly in place and have continued unabated ever since.

As there was no educational "subsidy" or road to an education through boxing the sport languished and fell to the way side. That there were some talented boxers in these decades is not evidence of ample participation but in spite of it.

The children from 13% of the total population came to dominate the two most popular sports in the country (NBA & NFL) averaging up to 80% and 66% of all participants after the color line was broken. That kind of statistical dominance is ample evidence that a strong case can be made that these athletes possess the best combination of speed, power, and athleticism.

When the majority of all professional athletes in a country the size of the USA are African-American it is fair to say that THEIR voice on the evaluation of athletic talent is irreplaceable. How many African-Americans read and/or post on ESB? It is an amazingly underrepresented sample.

If you have or have ever had any black friends, Tyson's fights were always events. There was a widespread appreciation for his fitness, his ferocity, his attack, his ability (especially at his stature), and success. It had to do with actual respect for what he brought to the table. You might note that no one in the black community has any interest or had any respect for the third rate Tony Thompsons, or Sam Peters (training out of Vegas previously) or Eddie Chambers or Lamon Brewsters or Ray Austins or Calvin Brock's, or Deontay Wilders, etc., etc. Obviously it wasn't because they were "white" that they were or are ignored. It is because anyone who is an athlete can see that they are 3rd rate un-gifted (often unfit) and untalented mediocrities. It is why there is no real interest and has been no meaningful interest in the heavyweight scene for a long time. Even without US participation, if there were great athletic talent from outside the US it would be watched and followed. If you are great or special at anything you will be watched and respected.

You can ask or you can play the videos (or tapes) of great boxers past and present to an audience of African-American athletes. There is ZERO doubt that Mike Tyson will be universally and immediately acknowledged as being among the greatest fighters that has ever entered a ring. I would put considerably more stock in their opinions especially as that is what I see from my own. The demographic "mix" of ESB is pathetically skewed in all respects. It results in more than a few absurd polls and nostalgic rankings.

It depends. If you had asked that question in '71 and even in the years after that, there were huge numbers of white Americans across our country that readily came up with all kinds of arguments about Ali not being so great (and certainly not in the class of Marciano). It took more than just his career but rather a change in the American culture over time for his non-ring life and "actions" to be "rehabilitated" and his ring prowess alone to be evaluated and translated into a begrudging public acceptance. For a good long time he was as disliked and hated as anyone could be for his non-ring life and many allowed his athletic reputation to be tainted as a consequence.

To a great extent, Mike's personal behavior is wrongly viewed as relevant to his athletic career. It is only relevant in that too much success at too early of an age allowed for him to allow non-ring activities to impact his career detrimentally. None of that changes that an inform Tyson produced great successes and was formidable at the athletic level of an ATG.

It does not mean that Tyson is the greatest ATG or that there couldn't be many greater fighters in the future so that he could be pushed from that pantheon. However, as the sport remains in a long, long talent decline, it is clear that he will remain an ATG alongside the others for a good long, long while yet.

Those that would claim that the sport is as strong as ever may be correct at least relative to what existed in their own countries - they should know about their own circumstances. However, within the US the sport is bereft of talent at heavyweight (among other divisions). Outside the US the popularity could only be stronger compared to what has been completely dead here. Nonetheless, there is still no one that I've seen for a long while that is impressive or extraordinary. And, it will take a far better combination of speed, power, and athleticism than currently exists in heavyweight boxing to attract the viewing interest of quality/talented athletes. If great athletes aren't watching - you aren't special. Period.

 

If you care to look ignorant you'll find it wasn't me who brought Wlad into the topic, it was one of your alts. Every poster on here who doesn't believe your hero is the best ever is agenda driven according to you.

That's all mate.

 

I was replying to a post you made. Whether you brought up Wlad initially or not is irrelevant.
This sport is bigger than any fighter and while I certainly appreciate Tyson and consider myself a fan, he is not my hero. Most of my heroes are dead.

Perhaps when you grow up you will understand where I'm coming from. In the meantime, continue to act the village idiot if you wish.

 

LOL@ someone accusing Fist of having an alternative account.. Now that's hilarious.

 

Just like whoever don't agree with the Tyson fanatics all get labelled alts, funny isn't it?

 

Azzer85 the man who pretends he's sparred with a fighter who beat David Haye yet runs and hides when challenged by a "village Idiot." :rofl

 

I'm sorry but by 99 I wasn't interested in the has been Tyson, I was more occupied watching top fighters do their business.

 

Aww how touching, have a nice night clown.