Liston without Ali

i think he would've retired as champion some people say he would've been beaten by frazier in 69 i used to agree now i dont. i disagree because cus steered him away from liston even when liston was just a shell. Two guys who worked with Liston claimed that 'Sonny would've made a Frazier fight just as one sided as when Big George demolished Joe in Jamaica'. this was refering to when frazier was champ and ali was in exile. i also dont think leotis martin would beat him because i feel their 69 fight was a fluke because liston was sick with the flu before the fight and he was also drinking.

 

probably retires as the champ and goes down as the best ever

a 40+ liston would beat foreman though, as long as he made even the slightest hint of training

 

Cus was never involved with Frazier, Durham doing mostly the managing and Futch the bulk of the training. Interestingly I don't recall anyone pushing for a late 60's bout between the two, had Liston got the win over Martin that may well have changed. Had there not been an Ali - Liston's chin may have been hit by one of Henry's left hooks or Ingemar's right hands in title defences but neither was built to hold up against him. Terrell wasn't any ball of fire to worry about if Sonny could still get in top shape nor would Chuvalo be a concern. Down the line he'd have to meet the comeing around Quarry or Frazier and who knows if he would have enough left there, I don't think so.

 

Sonny would obviously have reigned as champion quite a bit longer had Muhammad not been on the scene. It's possible that Ernie Terrel would have beaten an old Liston. Around 1966

 

Ernie was abit of a puzzle to me. A few before his bout with Ali thought both his jab and right hand were superior to Muhammad's but he would seldom let either one of them just go. We talked and he showed me how Ali thumbed him in the 1st round basically ending the fight but I'm not betting he would have thrown enough to make it close anyways. I agree with you that unless Ernie just went into a shell he would be favored over the getting older Sonny.

 

I suspect that he would have lost the title before much longer.

Once a champion stops taking their training seriously, they are only heading in one direction.

 

i meant Durham and Futch. my bad

 

Here is another way to look at it.

Has any champion ever had a long title reign while not training properly for title fights, and drinking heavily before them?

It just doesn’t happen.

The only example I can think of is Sullivan, and he fought in an exceptionally weak era, where most fights were scheduled for six rounds or less.

He would have been gone before Frazier came along.

 

Possibly Terrell, but if not him somebody else.

Imagine Liston coming out of his corner sluggishly like the Tokyo Tyson, and the guy in the other corner really wants it and is firing on all cylinders.

 

Without Ali Doug Jones might have been the new kid on the block.

Would have been intresting to see Liston defend the title against Doug Jones, ingo Johansson, an Eddie Machen rematch and Ernie Terrell. Each might pose intresting stylistic challenges. If Sonny got past them He would then be lined up for the next generation Frazier, Bonnavena and Quarry. Defending once or twice a year I think 1967 was as far as he could have went as champion because Liston was a late 1950s, early 60s fighter who was peaking in 1960.