Liston without Ali

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It's also worth bearing in mind that Liston was more injury-prone in this part of his career. He suffered another shoulder injury against Billy Joiner. If his shoulder goes against Clay, there's no reason it can't go against Jones or Chuvalo or whoever. Likewise if Leotis Martin can KO an old Liston, why not someone else? Combine that with his age and reduced motivation and I can see someone picking him off.

Perhaps we would have seen another late 20s/early 30s situation with a few weaker champs knocking each other off the perch before a Louis/Frazier came along to clean up.

 

um?:huh

 

I agree. And I will go one further… Clay of 64 wasn't a great heavyweight. He was very incomplete, very skittish and pretty vulnerable. Either Liston was not up for this fight or it was entirely in the bag as the second fight was. In fact, when examined with any scrutiny, Clay/Ali's first run as champ wasn't that impressive in terms of victims.

Whether he dove or not, Liston was ready to hang up the belt by 64… and he would have played the victim to many a possible foil

 

Those in Sonny's camp for the rematch that was postponed and then when training began again painted a different picture. Shortly before the postponement by Ali those in his camp said Sonny was as well conditioned and prepared as they had ever seen him and he seemed to have gone back a few years to his best days, but when training resumed something physically was wrong. Sparring partners said it was like he'd become old overnight as he was knocked around consistently. Scribes writing about his camp said he couldn't jump rope anymore and stumbled around the gym as if ill every day. One wrote that there was no way this man should be in the ring with the heavyweight champion.

 

It's too bad Ali-Liston II didn't happen as originally scheduled in November 64.

Who would Liston have fought after Patterson II in late 63 or early 64?

The Ring - December 1963
(as of October 22, 1963)

World Champion:
Sonny Liston
1. Cassius Clay
2. Doug Jones
3. Ernie Terrell
4. Cleveland Williams
5. Zora Folley
6. Floyd Patterson
7. Eddie Machen
8. Karl Mildenberger
9. Gregorio Peralta
10. Billy Daniels

The Ring - March 1964
(as of January ?, 1964)

World Champion
Sonny Liston
1. Cassius Clay
2. Doug Jones
3. Ernie Terrell
4. Cleveland Williams
5. Zora Folley
6. Eddie Machen
7. Floyd Patterson
8. Karl Mildenberger
9. George Chuvalo
10. Brian London

 

Terrell, a rematch with Machen and Doug Jones. Chuvalo would have happened too because two title fights went to Canada during the Ali era.

 

you put liston in his list of oppenents he was facing.