Ali post Manila to 1978

Foreman had a couple of months where he was the mandatory, so technically Ali should have given him a shot. I also think Young and Norton should have got rematches.

But let's put things in perspective here. Ever heard of Zygliewitz, Ron Stander and Terry Daniels? If you have it's only because Frazier somehow deemed them as worthy challengers. And add Foster, who did absolutely nothing at HW, to that list.

And Holmes didn't rematch Norton, Williams and Witherspoon despite close fights. He also ducked mandatories Page and Thomas, and didn't face Dokes either.

Then you have true horror reigns like Bowe's and Foreman's in the 90's.

Ali at least faced the best there were, even when old and with his legacy secured. I wish we could say that about everyone.

To be that far gone as Ali was after Manilla and still be competitive with Norton, Young and Shavers (all three close fights) is far from bad IMO.

 

There is certainly no doubt that post Manilla,Ali and Frazier should both have hung the gloves up.


Muhammad's decline was indeed signifigantly noticeable. Prior to Manilla,Shavers,Spinks and Evangelista would have been soundly beaten inside the distance. And yes,one does wonder about Muhammad's health today had he kicked off 1976 with a retirement party. A retirement that would have held

 

Hear....Hear :good

 

:good

 

All true. I re-watched Ali vs Holmes. Ali was calling Holmes all sorts of names and delayed the start of the match, yet Holmes became the villain for staying classy and doing his job?

Holmes said Ali kicked him out of camp in the early 1970's because he was too fast for him.

 

I tend to take 'sparring stories' with a pinch of salt. Not denying that events described in them happened but a lot gets overblown.


I've read that Holmes left Ali's camp because his management felt that he'd learned all he could

 

Holmes stayed with Ali until the mid 70's.

 

Yeah. Just before Ali's bout with Chuck Wepner,I think

 

Thank you:good!

 

Ali can be forgiven taking one easy payday, but two in space of a few months? You say Ali wanted Foreman and he didn't have to fight Dunn or Coopman. So why couldn't Foreman have filled in for Dunn or Coopman?

End of 1976. You say Ali wanted Foreman next and he says so in that article. Foreman was now the top contender who in the past year had KO'd two highly-regarded heavyweights who had recently given Ali tough fights. He was surely ready now by any definition. The WBC had also mandated that Ali should face Foreman next.

Why was Ali's next fight not against Foreman? Why did Foreman now have to get past Young? Ali-Evangelista was announced in April which means it had to have been in the works before Foreman-Young took place. Why was an Evangelista fight in the works at all? Even if Foreman had got past Young, he still would have been no closer to a title fight. Bear in mind that Young's win over Foreman didn't earn him a rematch with Ali either.

Ali was playing a lot of games in this period wrt to future opponents. He was often contradictory and non-committal when challenged about Foreman/Norton, and would say things like 'let X fight Y and I'll face the winner' (and then not face either, like with Young-Norton) or 'I'll fight Foreman in two more fights'. All whilst repeatedly retiring, unretiring, threatening to retire and talking up fights with the likes of Alfio Righetti.

Bottom line for me is there was sufficient time, interest and money involved that the fight could have been made had Ali wanted it. There was simply no other reason for it not to happen. At least half his fights post-Zaire were against inferior opposition to Foreman, set-ups that no one was calling for, and most were for less money than he could have made against Foreman. He often said he wanted Foreman yet his actions suggest different.

 

In February 1976 (two months into the new year) Ali signed to fight Jimmy Young, who, going into his fight with Joe "King" Roman on the Ali-Coopman undercard, was ranked #2. (Although Young ended up dropping a spot after his boring win over Roman.) Also, plans were already underway for Ali to fight the #1 contender Ken Norton.

http://s11.postimg.org/3p7py8itv/Page_1_Ali_Coopman_Young.jpg

And Ali ended up fighting both Young and Norton. In fact, within three-month time frame, he fought Coopman, Young and Dunn. He also made $6 million for a boxer-wrestler exhibition. And at the end of the year he made a movie of his life.

Four defenses, two of them the #1 and #2 contenders, a motion picture, a pay-per-view mixed martial arts exhibition ... That's a pretty busy year.

Wedging George Foreman in there - who he'd already knocked and and was so psychologically damaged from losing his title that he didn't fight a sanctioned bout for a more than year - didn't make the cut.

Yes, in hindsight, it would've been awesome if Ali had fought Norton and Young and Foreman all in one year. But, he didn't.

Part of that, and I hate to say it, had to do with Don King. King had the first option of making Ali-Foreman II before anyone else. Throughout 1976, he did his best trying to come up with backers who would put up the $13 to $15 million (like $45 to $50 million today) the fighters wanted for the bout.

http://s30.postimg.org/n4abjxtxd/Page_1_King_s_Boxing_Course_A_No_Star_Cast_a.jpg

In the meantime, George Foreman signed a contract with ABC to showcase his fights. They also gave him an announcing gig. Ali didn't "make" George Foreman fight Jimmy Young. Foreman took that fight as part of his ABC deal.

In fact, the day after the Frazier rematch, Foreman was talking to reporters about fighting Jimmy Young or Howard Smith.

http://s27.postimg.org/4tt3oy6er/Page_1_Foreman_King_Unite_View_Article_NY.jpg

Ali didn't have any deals with any network. And Ali wasn't making Foreman fight anyone or wait.

Ali-Foreman was the big money fight. They were both just waiting for someone (King or anyone) to put the deal together. In the meantime, Ali had his mandatory (Norton).

After Foreman lost to Young, one backer said he'd still be willing to pay $12 million for Ali-Foreman, BUT FOREMAN RETIRED.

http://s1.postimg.org/5ut0tk03j/Page_1_A_Wild_Goose_Breaks_the_Golden_Egg_Vi.jpg

Again, you can't blame Ali for Foreman retiring.

You can't blame Ali for George Foreman being a basket case in 1975 and not wanting to fight anyone in a sanctioned fight.

Basically, you're mad Ali didn't fight Foreman (WHO HE'D ALREADY KNOCKED OUT) in a small five-month window at the beginning of 1976 when Foreman himself was struggling to regain his footing.

If Don King could've come up with the money, if Foreman could've gotten his head screwed on straight, if if if ... but none of that happened so Ali didn't wait around for anyone.

He was trying to cram as much in as he possibly could that year.

 

jowcol already said it best. Ali was champ in those years only because the public wanted him to be. The world wants heroes. Rooting for Ali was like rooting for the DAllas Cowboys or New York Yankees...jumping on the bandwagon, except even worse, because we were lied to and told we couldn't believe our own eyes every time Ali got his ass kicked. A joke of a reign and a complete distortion of boxing history as the result.

 

Yeah. Those years after '75 did Ali no good. It's amazing, considering his physical condition from all those wars, that he could still continue winning.

 

No one with a straight face or occupied head can claim Ali ducked anyone. He had faced more all time greats than any other heavyweight. Even if Ali should have feared Foreman he didn't. He wasn't built that way.

The case for the Foreman rematch was building. The gate was building while Big George was rebuilding. No one can fault Ali for cashing in equity he had built up facing Frazier, Norton, Lyle with a few milk runs .

That said, imperial Ali was done post Thrilla. Manila should have been his swan song. It never ends like that.