Ali post Manila to 1978

A correction to my previous post Evangelista was no 8,no7 the next year and no8 the year after

I went to the fights every month then.
How many of Louis's challengers were expected to beat him?
Dempsey's? Tyson's? Holmes's,Wlad's?

Its a silly excuse.

Lyle was no5
Bugner no8
Shavers no4

Thirty four years old Ali fought Dunn after defending against the no2 challenger Young.

Should Ali ,in his mid 30's be castigated for being too good for his contenders?
Bottom line Ali, in his mid 30s defended against 10 men in 2 years for an average of 5 defences each year,or about one every 2.5months, only two of them were not top ten rated.

Do you want to compare his amount of defences in those 2 years and the respective ratings his challengers had with those of other champs?
How about Frazier? Two defences against unranked opponents in2 years.



Your argument is absurd,and the only one confused is you.

 

Ali supporters are like brainwashed Stepford Wives. They are poison Kool-Aid drinkers. Consider this:

Ring Magazine's Fighter of the Year for 1976 was.....George Foreman!

Ring Magazine's Fighter of the Year for 1977 was...Ken Norton!

So, while Ali was knocking out bums, getting gift decisions, and being kicked half to death by a wrestler, Foreman and Norton were winning big fights.

The public was in love with Ali, seduced by his looks and charm, and wanted him to be champ, plain and simple. Money was a huge part of it too, of course. But there were guys around who could have - and in some cases did -- beat the **** out of him.

 

ESB's top ten heavyweights of all-time by site-wide poll:

1) Muhammad Ali
2) Cassius Clay
3) Cleveland Williams
4) Rudy Clay
5) Laila Ali
6) Landover Evangelista
7) Leon Spinks
8) Lewiston Liston
9) Nassau Berbick
10) Tokyo Douglas

Honorable Mention: Montreal Duran

 

Ali defended his title 10 times in the 2 years between Foreman and Spinks. , 8 of those men were in
the top ten.
The Ring Fighter of the year in1977 was Carlos Zarate,not Ken Norton who never won it.

In 1977 Norton had 3 fights ,2wins over the unranked Bobick,unranked Zanon and a split decision over Young.

BTW. Ali was Ring Fighter of the year in1963,joint with Monzon in1972,and Fighter of the year in1974,1975,&1978.
He has won it more times than any other boxer
You are not rational.

 

I said Young, at the time he fought Ali, was not that highly thought of., despite his rating, which was reflected in the huge odds in a two horse race. I doubt anyone outside of boxing devotees had even heard of him. He got more brownie points off the controversial Ali result, plus for going on to beat Lyle again, then Foreman and (IMO) Norton too.

 

No point debating with him.

He once challenged me to prove why Ali lost to Berbick without resorting to mentioning Parkinsons and general wear/tear.

And he said he wanted an essay and not just some Ali fanboys mythical story.

With the points he made above, is it really worth wasting your time to respond?

 

He was rated number 2,that's pretty highly thought of I think.
Your statement does not hold water.

 

Ranked #2 despite having only one recognisable name on his record, and that fight was 14 months earlier.

Evangelista somehow crept into the top 10 after a loss to Lorenzo Zanon.

I'd take some of these rankings with a pinch of salt.

 

Fortunately your opinion is irrelevant.
The Lyle fight was 12months earlier not 14.
Evangelista was rated for three consecutive years 77/78/79

 

More like the rankings of that time, dont happen to meet your agenda.

If they did, you'd be claiming the opposite.

 

What in your opinion had Evangelista done to warrant a top 10 ranking?

 

Look, I've proved that in 2 years Ali defended his title 10 times, 8 times against rated contenders.
Young had also beaten Garcia and drawn with Shavers ,both recognizable names.
In his mid 30's, fighting every couple of months ,I guess he was entitled to a couple of soft ones in between the Foremans,Norton's,Shavers.etc

Your agenda has been blown out of the water and I've no interest it playing pass the parcel with you ad infinitum.

You hate Ali fine, I couldn't give a ****.I'm gone.:hi:

 

I wondered how long it would be before the cries of hater started. Some get very precious when their favourites are questioned. Just read any Marciano thread.

I think Ali is one of the two greatest heavyweights ever and one of the bravest, toughest fighters who ever set foot in the ring. If that's hate then so be it.

I just don't blindly hero worship him or act like he walked on water, like many do. He had plenty of flaws just like every fighter and there are various things that he can be justifiably criticised for, including his avoidance of the Foreman and Norton rematches.

 

Yes, George Foreman (who Ali had already knocked out) was winning big fights in '76. He beat Ron Lyle (who Ali knocked out the year before). And he beat Joe Frazier (who Ali stopped the year before).

And a month after Foreman was named Fighter of the Year, he lost (to yet another guy Ali had already beaten) and retired.

Consider that.

And when Ken Norton was winning big fights in '77 - I didn't know beating Lorenzo Zanon was considered "big" but whatever - and fighting a 12-round eliminator against Young ... all Ali did was beat Shavers. The same Shavers who knocked out both Norton and Young when he fought them.

Consider that as well.

I could understand people's complaints if Ali refused to ever fight a guy. But people are complaining that Ali didn't fight guys he already knocked out or fight guys for a fourth time.

It's just dumb.

Ali would've fought Foreman (who he already knocked out) FOR A SECOND TIME in '77, but Foreman lost and retired. Foreman barely survived against Lyle. Foreman let a totally done Frazier go nearly three times longer than he did in '73. And then Foreman got flattened and got retired by light-punching Jimmy Young.

George Foreman wasn't going to beat Ali in 76 and he certainly wasn't going to beat Ali in 77 after Jimmy Young totally humiliated him. That part of Foreman's career was over. He was a mental basket case.

And this debate is kind of loopy too.

 

As far as rematches go,up to the end of 1975,Ali's attitude would have been "Foreman,Norton,Young......Bring 'em all on" Post Manilla,though,Muhammad knew as well as anyone else that he was slipping quite steadily. He realised he could n't keep taking big fights back to back anymore. Yeah,I agree that he should have retired but the moth to the flame syndrome proved too much.

Young and Norton definitely deserved rematches,mainly because of the closeness and controversy of Ali's wins over them. Not SO much Foreman,as Ali's victory in Zaire was so emphatic and because of George going into hibernation through '75.

In spite of the above,as so many others have stated,Ali's resume against top contenders throughout the years was second to none.

And very few mention that Joe Frazier ducked Ali throughout 1972. Ali deserved a rematch against him far more than Foreman did against Ali. No disrespect against Frazier whom I admired a lot but what's good for one....etc....etc