If Marciano Was 1. Black?2. Not Unbeaten?

Of course. If Ali was white and lost his close decisions he would be perceived very different as well.

 

Well said Little Red...

 

You just had to visit to the future and dig it off my reply to you, did you not?


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Not white and not undefeated he would have gotten something like the treatment Floyd Patterson gets.

I think 1 reason to why those people exaggerate the past so much is because you have to go so far back in order to show that a white man could be seen as a force of nature, and not as another Steve Collins / Corrie Sanders whom were too close to the level of their contemporaries.
Just notice how a certain account here whom poses as an old timer kept praising Mathysse, until he lost a decision to Danny Garcia.
Now he jumped on another wagon, Golovkin.

I do think Golovkin and Mathysse are good, but did that pretender
jump on the Bradley wagon? on the Pacquiao wagon?

There is another one here whom will almost always pick the white guy to win, unless it is BOTH against the fashion AND against a black guy whom happened to destroy some of his favorite white guys.

I could go on and on.
You have the obvious Rocco-Wlad connection too, the regulars here know which posters I refer to.

Favorism of the times of very old is dumb racism in disguise, and it is not that I am brainwashed against racism like other people, I just learned to notice the disguised dumb racism which I hate.

I can agree to anything if it is true, but ignoring reality in favor of blind deeply disguised dumb racism is wrong.

 

Ali cemented his place in history by beating white guys.
Was Quarry a slightly better than a small mediocre cruiserweight?
No! Quarry only lost to greats!
No one would have beaten the ones that beat Quarry!
If Quarry's career was in any other era he would have won a belt for sure!

Ali also beat Bugner and Wepner , and the hell if he did not beat Chuvalo, let us ignore it too and let the fraud live on, or otherwise it may require some deep perceptional rearrangements and considerations, and "we" do not have the facilities to do so.

 

This sounds about right to me.

 

I still have doubts about it.
Patterson is overrated too.
How would not he be, taking Quarry close and winning a 2:1 over Johansson and also fighting others whom fought some of those precious white fighters?

People even try to elevate Wladimir to a top 10 and sometimes top 12 which is still very wrong.

Wladimir is big and strong, but so was Michael Grant.
Grant had 3 crushing defeats (in one of them he got fouled heavily) during or near his prime, but so did Wladimir except that he was never cheated except against Peters maybe.


Grant went down more than once in his victory over Golota, Wladimir went down more than once in his victory (?) over Peters in their 1st fight and against Williamson whom he ducked a rematch against.
Grant's list of wins is not worse than Wladimir's.

But Wladimir is a consensus top 20 HW, and where is Grant? listing him in top 30 is considered trolling.

Not all of it is racism in some form, part of it is the monkeyousity factor, when those of poor cognitive ability imitate the ones they consider their experts which is effected by their social perceptions.
The problem is that most of these socially recognized "experts" are either disguised racists, monkeyous pretenders themselves that got promoted over time, or both, or try to protect and or promote their book sales business or their journalist occupation or get famous or something.

In the strongest eras, fighters had boobs and bellies, and loved cocaine and sometimes other substance too.
Did it prevent them from outdoing Max Schmelling by far?
How many times since 1990 was Schmelling ranked over Douglas and how can it be excused?

Schmelling lost to inferior heavies (in fact they were not even heavies) to those that beat Douglas and even his biggest win is not as good as Douglas' and his list of telling wins is shorter, but he gets praised and Douglas gets dissed.

Why are those picking Marchegiano over Douglas not picking Ricardo Lopez over Douglas or at least over Rocco? Lopez might had been even more skilled than Rocco was, and quicker.
Why is it all about size?
Does skill not matter?

 

Just in time for Halloween the Trolls are out.

 

I think patterson and marciano operate at similar levels and have the same size disadvantage when h2h vs the real big guys, marciano never lost but also didn't face liston twice.

Douglas gets fairly dissed imo, both patterson and rocky made the most of what they had throughout their careers where as douglas managed it for only a handfull of fights.

How people rank hw's varies more wildly than other divisions because ranking h2h, or by resume give totally different lists. Mcgrain made a fair argument for rocky being #3 based on comparing resumes but he could also be out of the top 20 in a h2h list·

 

He'd possibly be rated higher.
I think he gets viewed with extra suspicion for being white and unbeaten.

 

I think he would be rated higher by certain posters on ESB simply because he was black. Some fans can not get over the fact that he was great and white.

Many great fighters had close early fights, some even early losses (Lennox Lewis KO'd) but I think knowledgeable experts can recognize an improvement if the fighter keeps winning when he moved up in class. One of the things I appreciate about Marciano is that he rematched every close fight he had and left no doubt in who was the greater fighter by the results of the rematch. (this is not something that I can say about many of the Champions who are rated highly on this board.
Marciano also defended against the best fighters of his ERA, former Champs and a current Champ and ATG (Moore) and 5#1 contenders and I think a Black Marciano may be better excepted by some.

you will always have those who are obsessed with picking hairs for someone that they feel the need to undermine or have a fixed opinion about.

I think very highly of Marciano but Joe Louis is my #1 heavyweight, Benny Leonard and Duran, SRR,Hagler,Monzon,SRL,Mickey Walker,LaMotta,Basilio,Pep,Saddler,Pac,Olivares,Chavez,Klitschko's, Bennie Briscoe. I think JJW is a great heavyweight but had his highs and lows and his best fights were with his greatest opponents but still an ATG and a dangerous opponent for many

The same question could be asked about Gene Tunney and the Greb fights or lets say Jack Dempsey (would we think his brutal KO over Willard and Firpo were less impressive because he was black.

I think you have a certain type of white guy that thinks white guys can not fight.

I am lucky that I grew up in some rugged area's of NY and Brooklyn and have had friends of every nationality and religion, Black,white and in-between and I have seen some very tough white guys beat some very tough black guys and visa versa and sometimes the white guy was in my group and sometimes the black guy was in my group, we fought in neighborhoods or schools against other neighborhoods or schools not colors because most of the hoods were mixed back then.

What I gained out of it was that I witnessed tough Irish, Germans,Jews,Polish,Italian,Black,Spanish,Puerto Rican,Cuban,Russian,mixed so I respect all men as men

some white guys can not see it because they dont see it in themselves because they grew up in segregated areas. I leave color out of the equation when I think of greatness in a fighter but there are some (mostly white guys who have that inferiority complex) Its called the "White man can't jump syndrome"

Again where Marciano and Joe Louis stand out is that they rematched every tough fight and left no doubt that who was the better fighter.

Black,White,Greek,Italian, Christian or Jew or Muslim, greatness is greatness

 

Just a hunch, if Marciano was black, and lost perhaps a controversial fight on points, you'd defend him tooth and nail and never question his one punch power or who he defeated.:deal

In his times both the white and black press felt Rocky was a solid champion, just not quite as good as a few before him.

 

:yep

 

I think Marciano was great, and I have very little criticism of his career.

However, he is neither a top ten HW ATG nor would he beat any of the top ten IMO, although he might pick up one in a series with prime Louis and Frazier.

Marciano is overrated because so many put him in with the very greatest to lace 'em up. It's preposterous.