Wlad is the most underated HVY champ ever, Marciano most overrated

And by the way, you mean to say you did not know that they got heavyweights down as low as they could back then? You say it's nonsense--****, anyone who follows the sport knows about it.

 

I reckon they'd be close fights. Not saying Wladimir is better than Lewis but I suspect he'd do better against Ali than him due to his superior athleticism and footwork, as well as a sharper jab. Ali vs Wlad would go to points and who ever won that fight would likely win by razor sharp decision. There wouldn't be much in it.

 

Great reply!

I'll be honest, I wasn't expecting these answers from you.

I really enjoyed reading them, and I respect your opinions.

Top post!


Are you looking forward to the Pulev fight tomorrow?

What do you think will happen?


:good

 

I remember when a poster on here said that Wlad's "minimalist" style proves he's great, and has shown that feints don't work on him. What the poster didn't realize is that Wlad does, in fact use feints.

 

Thanks a lot for your reply.


:good

 

I've read all sorts on here.

I've read:

Frazier would have been an embarrassing mismatch, and Joe would have been destroyed with ease.

Ali's footwork and speed wouldn't have bothered him at all, due to his jab.

He'd have immediately have knocked out the Ruiz version of Roy Jones in under a round.

He'd have knocked Ali out because he was bigger.

 

gassing sam peter is better than frazier, that's worth a mention as an example of klittard reasoning.

 

In my opinion Sam Peter is better than Joe Frazier ever was or could be.
Frazier is largely a product of his time. A 193-205 pound skinnyfat, one eyed,average speed, attrition brawler would never be a champion or a contender in this era. He fought against small opposition (median weight of opponents=201 pounds) that allowed him to have some success then.

A featherfist like Muhammad Ali would have had no chance of stopping the version of the insanely durable Sam Peter that fought Wladimir the first time. He would have struggled mightily and lost rounds like he did against many sub standard opponents throughout his career. How many insanely durable,extremely physically strong, conditioned 6'2 240 pound power punchers did Muhammad Ali face? Zero. The closest thing comparable power wise would be the great George Foreman but Foreman that fought Ali didn't have the gas to go for more than a handful of rounds. Peter did.

Ok I agree that any HW can be stopped but Henry Cooper is not a HW and never was by today's standards. He was a 180ish pound bum.
You are more than happy to harp on Wlad's loses to much bigger, dangerous more capable HWs but you'll make excuses for Ali getting sparked out by a bummy blown up LHW. It's the same thing you did when I brought up Lewis'(who's career and abilities I hold in much higher regard than Ali's) 1 punch stoppage loss to that fringe contender crackhead Oliver McCall and 1 punch KTFO loss to 20-1 underdog Rahman. These were bad, bad loses. Even worse than the ones Klitschko sustained and you tried to play it off. Quite a thinly veiled double standard you have.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not,Corrie Sanders was at his best a very good fighter, extremely dangerous, quick, heavy punching southpaw who could very well have beaten all of them. Vitali Klitschko who is well known for having a legendary iron chin could not be hurt by the hardest punches that Lewis could throw. Even that huge uppercut in round 6, probably the hardest punch Lewis landed in his life couldn't shake the elder Klitschko. Now this same iron chinned Vitali was wobbled badly and all over the place by only one short Sanders left hook. Vitali said Sanders was the hardest puncher and most difficult opponent he ever fought in his life. Hasim Rahman who was 1-1 with Lewis and felt the full brunt of his blows said that Sanders was the hardest puncher he ever met. So losing by TKO to such an individual is not an indication of much. In fact I would say if you were going to have a fluke loss to anyone under the radar, Sanders would be the most understandable. Sanders could have stopped any of those guys I mentioned, I would actually favor him to beat some of them. None of them have much experience at all against southpaws, especially one as dangerous as Sanders.

As you seem to be content to make excuses for Ali and Lewis' bad performances, couldn't you excuse Wlad's losses to Purrity and Brewster as a loss from overpacing fatigue and loss from probable poisoning(two fights in which he dominated thoroughly for almost 100% of the matches)?

but it is relevant to the discussion as we are assessing the careers of these fighters. Not only was Ali involving many contentious decisions, his second title reign after going life and death(quite literally) handpicking a shot, fat, half blind, Joe Frazier was a complete sham.

Aside from terribly woeful handpicked bums Jean Pierre Coopman, Alfredo Evangelista, Richard Dunn and Leon Spinks(who he actually lost to!); Ali was receiving terrible gift decisions against jello jawed Ken Norton
(the former ex marine with little amateur background and started boxing at 26) whom in my opinion he should be 0-3 against, 3rd rate glass chinned brawler Earnie Shavers who I scored beating Ali 9-6 and 34-19 bum Jimmy Young who was clearly robbed, even Cossell the biggest Ali sycophant said Ali should have lost.
I should Also mention mediocre 188 pound Doug Jones I and many others scored beating Ali in 1963. I won't even get into his first reign(but if you want I can). If Ali was so great shouldn't he have been cleaning house with all these very beatable mediocre fighters?

You can hide behind the excuses that he was "post prime"(even though all those fights took place at a younger age than Wlad is now) but he was the champion so you have to either admit how weak that era was that a "post prime" Ali could be the n.1 guy and all these bums could get title shots or you have to admit his title reign was a sham. It's either one or the other.

 

I'll do a best out of 10 prediction because anything can happen in a one off scenario.

Tyson:While I am personally not an admirer of Mike Tyson's conduct in and outside of the ring there is no doubt that he was a great, great fighter in his time(in spite of the fact that his record building up to his first title shot against Berbick was extremely poor). In a prospective match between him and Klitschko outside of a puncher's chance(which to a varying degree exists against any opponent given the quality of Tyson's punching ability),I would favour Klitschko to win. Let's get one obvious fact out of the way, Mike Tyson was a very small HW being about 5''10 and 217lbs with 71 inch reach. Accordingly in his career the taller and heavier his opponents were the worse Tyson performed. He had a great difficulty stylistically with the big boys, even the very mediocre/shot ones(e.g. Tillis & Green etc) knock them out and he was getting knocked out himself. In truth he never beat a big and talented modern HW in his career of the calibre of Klitschko. The closest thing he came to facing that was with Lewis and he was squashed like a bug. I know that Tyson was well past it at that point but if he had the goods to perform well against these big talented HWs he would have shown it in his career or at least for flashes in the Lewis fight. Against these bigger, stronger HWs he labored in clinches often getting bullied around(Klitschko to the chagrin of some fans is aside from Lewis probably the best big HW ever at using his size and strength to his advantage in clinches). Contrary to what some claim, Tyson could be put off by a jab by a bigger HW (Tillis,Tucker,Smith, Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis,D.Williams, Mcbride etc). Klitschko as we know has one of the best jabs in the history of the HW division and is one of the smartest ring tacticians. In my opinion Klitschko would keep Tyson on the end of his jab, peppering him with accurate pin point shots from range while staying on the backfoot, moving around the ring and in on Tyson, occasionally throwing a very quick right cross behind his jab. When Tyson bullrushes him so he can reach him with his short arms, Klitschko clinches him throwing his 250lbs body on Tyson's neck(you can bemoan these tactics but this is what fighters like Muhammad Ali did their whole careers). Klitschko builds a substantive lead on the scorecards, Tyson who had "a lung problem" by his own admission tires and stops moving his head making himself a bigger target for power punches and then Wlad closes the show late by knocking Tyson out, most like with a jab cross or left hook to right cross set up.

Klitschko 6/10 (Klitschho 4KO/TKO& 2 Decision wins--- Tyson 4 KO/TKO wins)

Holmes: Tough fight. Both men would be entering the ring with the best boxer they have ever fought against. Both men like to tenderize their opponents with the jab( Klitschko's jab is probably harder while Holmes' jab may possibly be a little quicker). Klitschko is the much bigger man and the puncher in this match up but as we all know he prefers to fight within himself and not slug it out (which I believe would serve him well in this match up). Holmes while not a puncher did like to mix it up when he saw opportunities. I see a technical, somewhat cautious fight play out. Holmes would take his rounds, Klitschko would take his. Most likely goes to a close decision.

5/10 (Klitschho 5 decision wins--- Holmes 5 decision wins)
I do change my mind periodically on this one, favoring one over the other.

Holyfield: I'll repost my previous opinion-
Throughout Holyfield's great career, he always had problems with a talented SHWs. He was 1-4 against the talented SHWs he fought in this 90's period in Bowe and Lewis. Being a blown up CW he had problems against these naturally much bigger men. Like Bowe Holyfield had problems with HWs who stuck to the jab. I would see a Holyfield W. Klitschko fight being much like his fight with Lewis. Lewis had a remarkably easy time just keep Holyfield on the end of his jab and keeping an arms lengths distance for the duration of the fight.
I see a hypothetical fight between Klitschko and Holyfield to play out much like that, with Klitschko winning a comprehensive UD or scoring a late stoppage victory.

Klitschko 7/10 (Klitschho 5KO/TKO& 2 Decision wins--- Holyfield 3 decision wins)

Frazier: I think I've sufficiently stated my opinions on Frazier.
Klitschko 10/10 (Klitschko 10KO/TKO wins)

Norton: Norton would be outweighed, outreached and shorter than Klitschko. Norton was knocked out against every big puncher he faced in his career. He was even knocked out against 188 pound featherfist Jose Luis Garcia. I don't see Kenny standing much of a chance.

Klitschko 10/10 (Klitschho 10KO/TKO wins)

 

Liston: Sonny "slow as molasses" Liston is quite possibly the most overrated brawler in the history of pugilism. That awkward, slow, often inaccurate jab magically improved in public perception in the years after he fought a man then named Cassius Clay. Throwing all those wild hooks is probably why he dislocated his shoulder against Clay! The man spent his whole career padding his record against bums,glass chins and sub cruisers.
He wasn't this big dreadnought that he is claimed to be (or at least by today's standards). He was only 6'0.5 and started his career weighing under 200 pounds. He spent most of it fighting in the 203-215lbs range before he went on the beer and hotdog diet against Clay before their first fight. This makes him one of the smallest opponents Klitschko has ever faced. His reach was also a myth, when he fought Leotis Martin, the Nevada state athletic commission measured his reach at 80.5 inches(so his much vaunted reach in actuality was shorter than Klitschko's reach). He also had a suspect chin having his jaw busted by a 170 something pound Marty Marshall, getting KO'd early in one punch from featherfist Ali(I'll admit Liston probably did decide to quit) and getting KTFO by 199 pound featherfist Leotis Martin. In my opinion it would be one of Wlad's easiest title defences.

Klitschko 10/10 (Klitschho 10KO/TKO wins)

Bowe: I'll repost my previous opinion-
Bowe as we saw in his two fights with Golota and second fight with Holyfield had very little ability to handle a consistent jab. Against a smaller opponent like Holyfield who he could physically mug and out strength he could work his advantages but this didn't work at all against the big and strong Golota. He also had a porous defence coupled a terrible habit to throw a big looping telegraphed right hand. Klitschko who possess one of the greatest jabs in the history of the division would blind Bowe with his jab and have a right cross coming a fraction of a second after before his brain could register the punch was coming, he would be hit. Bowe's rough work on the inside would be shut down by the bigger and stronger Klitschko just like it was shut down against Golota. When Bowe commits to his big looping right hand, Klitschko will catch him with his straight right that is much faster. Straight punches always land before big looping shots.

Klitschko 7/10 (Klitschho 5KO/TKO& 2 Decision wins--- Bowe 2 decisions & 1 KO/TKO win)

Lewis: Thinking about this fight, this is the one that would give Wlad the biggest challenge. Not only would he be facing an opponent who is as tall, big and probably as strong as him (although Klitschko is more co-ordinated,faster and athletic) Lewis also has the boxing ability to match him as well. Besides the physical similarities, they had the same legendary trainer for a large portion of their careers who improved both of them into becoming dominant champions. Lewis like Klitschko was also a big puncher but Klitschko carries his power into the late rounds much better(round 7-12 KOs---Klitschko 12---Lewis 4). The one striking difference here is that Lewis had the tendency to be more aggressive out of the gates than Klitschko. Sometimes it would be to his advantage and sometimes it would get him caught. In this match the combination of Lewis' size, boxing ability, punching power and aggressiveness would be a bad match up for Klitschko

Lewis 7/10 (Lewis 5KO/TKO& 2 Decision wins--- Klitschko 3 KO/TKO wins)

Foreman: This one is hard to nail down as Foreman was a fighter with two different careers: Young Foreman & Old Foreman, I think I do separate ones on both.

Young Foreman: I think all will agree that young Foreman's best performances were his walk in the park destructions of Joe Frazier and Ken Norton. This says absolutely nothing on how he would deal with a modern SHW boxer-puncher like a Klitschko or a Lewis.
Foreman's strength was his great punching power and his often underused jab. His weaknesses were his lack of hand and footspeed, Ali famously labeled him as "the mummy". He's even slower than Peter in my opinion.
His defence was not good either, specially for jabs and other straight punches as seen in the Ali and Young fights. His chin is also questionable as he was knocked out by featherfist Ali(he was counted out at 8 though) and being knocked down by bummy featherfist Jimmy Young.
As stated in with Bowe straight punches land before big hooks and if the faster Klitschko can land with his straight punches, it can be night night for George. George can win if he catches Klitschko with a big shot.
George would have to get Klitschko on the ropes because he is exxtremely hard to land on in the centre of the ring.

Klitschko 7/10 (Klitschho 5KO/TKO& 2 Decision wins--- Young Foreman 3 KO/TKO win)

Old Foreman:
Foreman is much older, slower and fatter than he was when he was young but his punch resistance is better and he paces himself much more efficiently. He still had major problems with guys that boxed even against a guy who was much less skilled like Morrison. Foreman may have his "it happened" moment against Wlad like he did against Moorer but it is unlikely because Michael stayed in the pocket too long and gave George the opportunity that Wlad wouldn't.

Klitschko 8/10 (Klitschho 2KO/TKO& 6 Decision wins--- old Foreman 2 KO/TKO win)

 

Marciano: Like with Frazier, Marciano was a product of his era and would never be a champion or contender in the HW division today. Imagine if Klitschko had just told the world he won't fight his mandatory Kubrat Pulev but will instead fight a pudgy 5'9 185 pound fighter. Not only would all the athletic commissions not sanction it but Klitschko would become an instant pariah. He'd be the guy that wanted to beat up on an opponent who is easy to hit, slow and he outweighs by 60 pounds. Absolute joke of a fight.

Klitschko 10/10 (Klitschho 10KO/TKO wins)

Louis: Louis like his other contemporaries would be outweighed, outreached and would be much shorter than Klitschko. When looking at a Louis vs Klitschko fight, a lot of the old timers like to point to Primo Carnera as an example of how Louis would win but what they fail to mention is that Primo Carnera was a mob connected circus freak who didn't know a left hook from a fish hook. He was slow, uncoordinated and was a mediocre boxer.
Louis' defence wasn't great, he was slow of foot and a had a very questionable mandible. If Louis were around today, he would be like that other glass chinned undersized power puncher Herbie Hide. A couple decent KO wins in the career but lack of size(even Hide is bigger than Louis),defence and chin would have him
not doing much against Klitschko.

Klitschko 8/10 (Klitschho 8KO/TKO wins--- Louis 2 KO/TKO win)

I've already mentioned Douglas before.

Ali:I would give Steward trained Wladimir a great opportunity to beat any version of Cassius Clay/Ali. Stylistically the match up favors him. Throughout his career he has never had a problem against the smaller, quick featherfisted stick n runners. Earlier in his career he had some defensive, overpacing issues that flared up against some big punchers but they were sorted out under Steward.
Ali had no answers for Ken Norton's jab and I see him struggling mightily to get by that lead jab/left hook. Alot of holding and clinching from the bigger man can sap Ali's strength. Wlad won't waste energy throwing wide, frivolous punches like Foreman did in Zaire(wtf was he thinking?). With fair, neutral judges I'd say Wlad beats Clay/Ali by decision. Ali got many gift decisions in his career so Wlad could get robbed as well.


Klitschko 6/10 (Klitschho 2KO/TKO& 4 Decision wins--- Clay/Ali 4 decision wins with 2 being very questionable)

You mentioned Golota before so I'll do that one

Golota: Wlad would break Golota down mentally. He possesses better skills, better jab, much more power, better two fisted puncher, and most importantly he is far more crafty, tactical, and ring savvy than Golota.
He would stop him early.

Klitschko 10/10 (Klitschho 10KO/TKO wins)



These are my honest opinions.

 

to be fair, the klittard above just made a far more extensive collection of typical klittard views that anyone could hope to muster.

went well again there then.

 

homes is the best.

 

:good

 

no tyson is 5'10" 220lb rocky is 5'9" 187lb