What was so bad with Dempsey vs Gibbons?

And yet it was Wills who got the eliminator because everyone knew that he was the top contender. Nevermind that the knockdown you characterize was the result of a foul.

 

What we need here is a timeline chart, putting these fighters careers against each other.

That would explain a lot.

 

1. How can it be personal, Ive never met Dempsey. Its called being objective and taking off the rose colored glasses.

2. I never said Wills knocked out Norfolk two weeks before Dempsey beat Gibbons. Go back and read my post. I neglected to mention the Tate fight because it did nothing to diminish Wills' standing as the top contender for Dempsey hence him getting the title eliminator. Only 100 years later are people trying to skew that into something it wasnt.

3. You say Wills did not dominate his black contenders. I say Dempsey didnt even fight his black contenders. Which would you rather have hanging over your head?

4. Name one writer of the time who thought Wills would beat Dempsey? How about Nat Fleischer? He said Wills would thrash both Dempsey and Gibbons easily and stated it was disgraceful that Wills was being avoided. Greb, not a writer but an extremely astute observer of the sport, also picked Wills to beat Dempsey. Greb was rarely ever wrong in his picks.

5. Yes, 2 years earlier Gibbons whipped Greb who came back two months later and whipped Gibbons. Then when the eliminator was on the line along with a decision and over a 15 round route which Gibbons always said would give him the time he needed to stop Greb, in front of the richest crowd of the season and one of the largest gates of the time Greb whipped Gibbons ass in dominate and embarrassing fashion. You, know, the time that it actually matters in regards to this argument.

So yeah, its pretty black and white.

 

Also fair to note that when Levinsky fought Greb he was in shape whereas when he fought Dempsey he had been working in the local shipyards and was unable to train for the bout. Who gives a **** if the MINORITY of papers (THE VAST MINORITY) in Levinsky's HOMETOWN thought he "won." What matters is the majority of papers in Levinsky's hometown picked Greb. You know, the guy Levinsky was NEVER able to beat in any of their contests?

 

Really? Where is that record? Id like to see it. Because when Greb was offered a chance to fight Fulton in Pittsburgh his only reason for turning it down was because it was a marquee fight in New York that would have netted him 5 times as much. Ive never once seen where he stated he wanted no part of Fulton.

He also tried to get a fight with Firpo but Firpo declined. What are these other dreadnaughts? Morris who was totally shot when Dempsey fought him in a fight everyone thought was fixed? Or Willard who tried to hire Greb as a sparring partner in 1919 but was told Greb intended to challenge him if he defeated Dempsey. Yeah, Greb was really running scared of these so called dreadnaughts. Of Dempsey's challengers: Miske, Brennan, Carpentier, Gibbons, Firpo, and Tunney Greb defeated all of them with exception of Carpentier (who avoided him like the plague to the point of refusing to even spar with him) and Firpo (who avoided him).

 

Before I read this whole thread-& it is a good & fair, well phrased challenge:

I was surprised to see Clay described as over 210, even from memory.
Recall he was a LHW champion in the '60 Olympics & moved up from there. In 1963 he did not weigh that much, he did not enjoy a 2o lb. or more advantage over Doug Jones. It was 202.5 vs. 188.

 

Janitor, a point of order: When you use "natural weight" as the size a guy is most successful with, you mean what weight they did or would do better against other competitors at that weight, right?

Using Spinks as an example, he was better & more domnant at 175, whatever he weighed on fight night. Yet in absolute terms, against either himself or against all comers at any size, you do acknowledge that at just over 2-- vs. Holmes, or close to Tyson's weight when blown out, he would almost certainly be better, right?

This should be true of others who gained a lot of muscle weight, such as Holyfield & Moore, though even better at lighter weights...vs. that competition.

It is a smaller weight difference-thus perhaps a big cause for much less success as a HW-but the same should apply to Foster.

It seems you meant that Byrd could have done better in absolute terms against Klitchko when lighter though. Am I correct on these suppositions?

 

I think it was Harry Keck who said it years later.

It's interesting that you accept Greb's explanation at face value. Who did Greb fight instead?

What does this mean/prove ?
Are you saying Willard ducked Greb ? Did he withdraw his offer to hire Greb for sparring ?
Please clarify.

 

I'm not sure I follow this.
Greb did not beat Wills or fight him, so where did he fight the guys who stood between him and the champion ?
The fact that Dempsey defended against some lesser fighters who Greb had beat, doesn't mean that Greb was beating the best guys, does it?
Dempsey fighting Brennan in 1920 was a disgrace, cynical, Brennan was a bum etc. .... but I'm not sure why we're crediting Greb so highly for fighting Brennan 4 times. I mean, isn't it almost as cynical ?
And apparently he didn't have time to fit Fred Fulton into his schedule. Maybe so.

I'd be surprised if they had not.
Jim Corbett drew with Peter Jackson.
Max Baer beat Max Schmeling.
Harry Greb never faced the #1 contender.
Did he even face the #2?

Slightly circular argument there.

But who did he beat ?
Gibbons? Tunney ? Brennan ? Where would you rank them as heavyweight contenders at the time Greb beat them?

 

All you have to do is watch the films and take a look at Gibbons' record. First of all, like some have said, Gibbons was a very experienced crafty veteran with a durable chin and sound defense. He only got stopped once, in his very last bout. The films show that Gibbons fought extremely cautiously and defensively against Dempsey. It is very difficult to stop a guy whose number one goal is to survive, not win, and who has the skill and durability to do it. Gibbons moved, covered up well, and clinched, and did not throw often or expose himself to counters, or do enough to allow himself to get fatigued. So sure Dempsey tried to break him down, but that was a tall order against a guy like that. Dempsey easily won every round. So it was what it was.

 

You are clearly out of your depth here by asking this question. Even before Dempsey won a championship Greb was angling for a fight with him and seeking out his proposed opponents to defeat and position himself as a challenger. When they talked about Dempsey-Levinsky Greb beat Levinsky and Dempsey then fought Levinsky shortly thereafter in the same town that Greb beat the Battler. When Dempsey wanted to fight Bill Brennan Greb beat Brennan easily and Dempsey defended against him less than a year later. When Dempsey was trying to get Gunboat Smith approved as a defence Greb knocked Smith out in one round. When Dempsey was trying to get Bartley Madden approved as a defence Greb dominated Madden. When Dempsey was trying to talk up a fight with Carpentier Greb threw numerous challenges Carpentier's way only to be told that Carpentier's agreement with Dempsey stipulated that he could have no fights in the interem lest he take the chance of losing. When Dempsey was trying to talk up a Gibbons fight Greb beat Gibbons in a title eliminator in one sided fashion (the point of this thread). When Dempsey was talking up a Firpo challenge Greb tried to get a fight with Firpo only to be shot down. I could literally go on but the idea that Greb wasnt fighting the guys that would lead him to a match with Dempsey is ludicrous, especially when you consider that Dempsey himself was taking the path of least resistance. The argument behind Dempsey nut huggers here is ludicrous: Dempsey refused to fight Wills because he was black, Greb was Dempsey's best white challenger but didnt fight Wills either so really Dempsey was justified in ducking both of them. This is the same sad, deluded, hero worship logic that allows fighters today to go decades without facing their best matches so its no surprise that a modern fan would even consider this to be a valid argument.

Wait, so was it a disgrace that Dempsey fought Brennan or that he almost lost to a fighter you say it was a disgrace for him to fight?? Thats there we have it again. The same weak ass argument that Dempsey didnt fight the best so his challengers beating those guys in more convincing fashion than Dempsey doesnt really mean they were qualified. At worst you can say those guys were a measuring stick and the measuring stick showed that Dempsey was avoiding the guys who were beating the same level of competition he was defending his championship against with ease. Thats pretty pathetic any way you attempt to spin it.

How do you beat the number 2 contender when you are it? Greb didnt fight Wills but he beat every other guy who was held in the top five throughout Dempsey's career if they would face him. The only guys he missed were Floyd Johnson (who was considered a contender very briefly and Jess Willard who between 1919 and 1923 had 2 fights and lost 1). You say who did he beat and then throw up arguably the three best HW names on Dempsey's championship ledger and then have the stones to accuse others of circular logic? LOL.

 

Won every round??? Dempsey was behind after five rounds at which point Gibbons stopped trying to win when he got caught with a good punch. Dempsey did not win every round of that fight. Gibbons stock skyrocketed after that fight and it wasnt because Dempsey won every single round "easily."

 

Perhaps the written reports say something other than what my eyes show me, and obviously the films are not totally complete, but from the existing films I have seen, I don't see anything on them that leads me to believe Gibbons won any round, other than perhaps the 5th.

Keep in mind also that Dempsey had not fought in 2 years.

I imagine Gibbons' stock rose because he had gone the distance with a killer puncher who was revered like a god, and fighters wanted to prove themselves against a guy like Gibbons to raise their stock.